~~the good, the bad, and the long-lasting

[reenka]

So I'm reading the Howling Curmudgeons comics blog, and this entry about what makes a truly 'good' (comic-book) character got me thinking. Basically, this is his definition of one:
    Those may be the only criteria -- if a character contributes a new, worthwhile, and setting-appropriate voice to the universe, then he's a good character; if not, then he's not a good character.
    The comments also added that a "good character has interesting relationships with those around him". Hahaha, I wonder if some of you already see where I'm going with this :D

Later on, there was discussion within the comments as to whether there's been a new 'good' character of that sort introduced in comics since the late 70s, and someone brought up Sandman's Dream as an outstanding character, and then the question arose whether that fit the bill because there's doubt he'd translate as well into being written by someone other than Neil Gaiman. So there was another redefinition made:
    However, I think when you're talking about "really good characters" as opposed to "really good uses of a character by a writer and artist" or "really good characterizations by a writer" you really are dealing with questions of popularity and longevity. That is, a "really good character" is one that actually works pretty well, and popularity and longevity are the best ways to see if its the character that actually works or if it's "just" the artist and writer.

This... er... has really interesting implications for fanfiction, doesn't it :D Especially for the driving ideas behind 'fanon', and most especially for the much-contested meaning/significance of fanon Draco :D
    And of course this made me very happy, thinking that you could pretty much say that Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy and Snape have all become 'living' characters outside of JKR's initial story (or 'good' characters) of this sort; they've been made & remade, and the urge to see them interact with their world remains strong within the fandom readers & writers. And this taps into my fascination with & love for shared universe-type writing like comic books & further back, folklore itself; somehow it makes me happy to envision fanfiction in this light, and to favorably compare someone like Draco Malfoy to say, the Green Lantern in a sense (or Spike... mmm, Spike <333), because he too is a figure of the collective imagination now. :D

And yes, in this sense I do love & have always loved fanon Draco; my quibbles are all with writing/characterization quality in (many) specific fics, really. This is probably because in a 'typical' shared-world situation, the writers are designated more carefully, so there's a sense of quality-control, whereas the fanon world is wild & much more dependent on our subconscious desires/drives and weaknesses as writers (and usually readers of fic) than the demands of good writing.

So what I'm saying is, while I'm all for fanon Draco's burgeoning iconic nature, I don't think he's a truly a 'good' character unless I find an incarnation that's done well; if he's not done well, as far as I'm concerned, for all his potential, he ceases to be interesting. This is well-put later on in the entry's comments:
    The question of what makes for a "good" character is ultimately a measure of quality, whereas the question of what makes for a long-lasting, iconic character has other considerations, or at the very least measures a different kind of quality: less narrative/artistic, more strictly conceptual.

Comments

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

I like your posts on collective imagination - which is what I like about fandom - because it runs away with characters that the writer seems to not like so much. I've always been a sucker for the weird character in the background, that no one really seemed to like, and fandome usually is my touchstone for "well, there's a whole bunch of us weirdos out here." Part of imagining the writer stumbling on it herself. Had a whole period of reading block after I was disappointed by writer's interviews/meeting writers as people. Somehow seemed that it diminished my idea of a novel's imaginative potential.

whereas the fanon world is wild & much more dependent on our subconscious desires/drives and weaknesses as writers (and usually readers of fic) than the demands of good writing.

I wonder about this - in a navel-gazing way. Because there's fic I enjoy - as coffeejunkii's post a few days ago brought up - and there's fic I write. And I know if I have to read my fic elsewhere, the misery would be quite infuriating. And the naive remonstrance "be true to yourself" is not exactly interesting to me. Because how much of our desires in our own writing is connected to our interactions in such an interactive space as LJ, and I'm skeptical of our desires being the gauge for quality.

The primary beta-goddess, fredathebagel never lets me get away with shit. Her responses are, "Uh, this is boring/uninteresting (usually around domestic H/D). He's too passive here. What are you saying about reproduction? It has to be about power. The sex is gratuitous. Cut it." and hers is the one judgement I trust. But I'm sure it's producing the stuff that will cull down the number of readers - have them running screaming in disgust.

:D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, I'm much more... okay with messed-up/unappealing writers, possibly 'cause I get a 'sense' of the writer from the fic, and I'm rarely surprised. :>

And the thing about Draco is that he's become such a main character, such an icon, that him being minor in canon is not even important anymore, I think; he is important in fanon-- he's one of the pillars of fanon. It's why I got into fandom, 'cause well... I'd never go looking for fic about him based on canon, since I'm like the direct opposite of you in terms of always going for the main character ^^

In general, I'm skeptical of unfiltered(!) desires determining the direction of serious writing. I guess I can cut off like, 95% of fanfic writers right there (meaning, they write 'just for fun', or whatever... not that -I- don't write for fun, but not to split hairs); in terms of craft, of course you'd need to be true to yourself and your own instincts and realize that there are always better/cleaner/smoother ways to basically accomplish what you want with the characters & story.

Man, I'm pretty sure 90% of the time I'm alienating my readers 'cause I almost never pander to anyone, including myself; however I would guess that in the end, good writing/plotting choices coincide with reader enjoyment in a lot of ways, depending if you can pull them off. People like resolved emotional arcs, and they make good stories, too. If there's a balance of things and a sense of 'this fits', you can get away with fanservice too, definitely, depending on what sort of genre you're going for as well.

I think for me, the difference between what I read & write is more on the nature of personal capacity (since I like mysteries & thrillers too, but suck at action writing) rather than preference. But there is a greater willingness to explore unpretty territory that comes with writing vs. reading, it seems to me. Hmm. I mean, I'd write pretty much any pairing without squicking myself if I could be inspired, but reading-wise, I'm pretty solidly into my OTP and a few others (H/S and S/R, which I'm really bad at writing, both). I'm not sure if I'm unusual in that or not; I do think that the deeper 'digestion' of a subject-matter inherent in writing allows one to 'own' it & create something uniquely suited/plausible to oneself, in that case.

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

It's the matter of resolution - which I am a firm believer in, YES! - and whose resolution is satisfying.

Sometimes I like the snippets tied together and a reassurance that they lived happily ever after, but then, I wonder if that's my "guilty pleasure" reading habits coming out. As for the strangely "left off" endings, there are fics that do that well, without telling the reader exactly what happened to each person and how they felt. If the fic didn't give you a clue up to that point, I'd say, eh~.

It's funny about the writing, isn't it? I'm writing Snupin on the side, and I never read Snupin. They're just fun to write. And I hope it appeals to a readership somewhere...

This talk thought is weirdly timely - fredathebagel and I were comment tagging about a scene (motive, reaction ect) just last night- so the main dramatic trauma scene is preceded by this new sudden development, and it looks like it overpowers what I thought would be the main horrific piece.

Now, she sent me an e-mail worrying that it's "unrelentingly grim" and the obligation to readers (that they need somehting fluffy in between to offset this. hmmm). I'm afraid she's right.

*headdesk*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm, that reminds me of people saying Lucid Dreaming didn't have a satisfying resolution, and I guess in that case it depends what you were looking for; it's obvious it didn't have a satisfying H/D resolution, but I wouldn't call that fic H/D, precisely, since the real Draco was never with Harry, and the fake!Draco/Harry arc was resolved (but clearly that's still not what people cared about, maybe).

I too like open endings a lot of times & snippets sometimes, but resolution can come in many forms, doesn't have to depend on knowing the future so much as putting the past in some sort of perspective, I think, which makes all the pieces fit together in a whole, gives the work structure. It's usually more emotionally satisfying if there's a sense of 'pay-off', but that's more of a heroic-style arc rather than merely a complete emotional arc, methinks. Possibly though, I'm also being paranoid about my own fic, where there's lots of angest & pane on Draco's part and it's pretty unrelenting until the end, where there's this spot of hope, but you've no guarantees. Then again, I don't particularly enjoy guarantees. Every writer really does have an ideal audience, and I'm probably my own :>

I do know about the 'unrelentingly grim' novella thing (and I think mine is probably even more emotionally traumatic than yours, though less horrific), and my instinct is to say that it depends on how the rest of the style of the fic is. If you break it up in general, then it makes sense to continue, but if this is the climax, then the structure would be to build up to it in a rising emotional pitch, hit it, and then have fall-out. Hard to say without seeing the precise context :>

I'm not sure about the 'unrelenting' thing, basically; I think tragedy & drama & horror all have different built-in tolerance levels which seem more important than whatever a reader would say, since readers are so different. Also, this being me, I'd say fuck the readers, 'cause while I aim to please, in the end I don't give a damn 'cause I write for myself ><;;;

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

I too like open endings a lot of times & snippets sometimes, but resolution can come in many forms, doesn't have to depend on knowing the future so much as putting the past in some sort of perspective, I think, which makes all the pieces fit together in a whole, gives the work structure.

I just want to avoid those with: And he did this, and she ended up with him and so on and so on... Like at the end of biopics. I really don't like those. Framing a life as if it were a (somewhat simple) novel.

And not "knowing the future so much as putting the past in some sort of perspective," - EXACTLY.

If you break it up in general, then it makes sense to continue, but if this is the climax, then the structure would be to build up to it in a rising emotional pitch, hit it, and then have fall-out.

This is my instinct yes. If there's a filler-fluff in the middle, I'm not sure the effect would be the same. or work at all.

basically; I think tragedy & drama & horror all have different built-in tolerance levels which seem more important than whatever a reader would say, since readers are so different.

Yup, I've read the scariest things in the fandom - nothing that horrific matches in published writing, I find - and usually end up skipping the fluff myself, so I'm probably angsting about nothing right now.

It's just HOT here. And I'm cranky. And I'm practically begging around for a second opinion, so don't mind me... I should just get a nice iced tea, and work on work for a change.
ha!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

And the thing about Draco is that he's become such a main character, such an icon, that him being minor in canon is not even important anymore, I think; he is important in fanon-- he's one of the pillars of fanon. It's why I got into fandom, 'cause well... I'd never go looking for fic about him based on canon, since I'm like the direct opposite of you in terms of always going for the main character ^^

I'd go so far as to say he's important in canon too--I mean, there's "important" in different ways. He's not one of the main characters--he's more a supporting character than a minor one, minor being more like Hannah Abbott. He's supporting, I'd say, because he's so tied to different characters and to the plot--his position is important and pivotal. I'm not just mentioning that so he sounds more important--I think it's a big reason fanon!Draco exists. Because there's a need for them. Not a need for a particular characterization (like iceprince!Draco or woobie!Draco), but just that peoples' imagination automatically goes to that position. You can just so easily see why anybody would think that position and that character, plus the few things the author gives him, would be a great place to start.

And I don't think that just goes for Draco. There's just a lot of meat on all the characters' bones, mostly. The least interesting stories are often the ones that don't use the little details we get in canon, you know? Like, a Hermione who's just suddenly cool and dates a lot of boys isn't half as interesting as one that starts off from something of canon, be it her having never forgotten Ron's insult from first year or her feelings on Luna.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wasn't um, thinking very much when I just called him 'minor' largely 'cause frogslayr said "weird character in the background"~:) But yeah, he's definitely often important for plot development and such, and yet his role is probably not used enough or deeply enough, or has untapped potential for even greater relevance, which fandom has picked up on. He's sort of situated well as Lucius' son and Harry's first peer and the other Seeker, etc, and often utilized but not in the ways fandom utilizes him, usually (that is, he doesn't report or indirectly influence so much as directly determine plot in most fanfics featuring him, and such).

And heheh, I wasn't meaning to say that it doesn't matter if the characterization is OOC (I think that's I meant to say that fanon Draco's not interesting unless it's well-characterized in my view). I mean, if the character stops being recognizable as themselves, the whole point of using them seems moot somehow. Not that this stops people from writing bodyfic or anything, but I suspect that's a different process from shared-universe style writing entirely.