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reenkaMan, I love quotes. I forget how much.
For instance:
We are never deceived. We deceive ourselves.
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Yes, that's right. Whatever it is? It's your own fault. I love how unforgiving of the self that quote is. Basically, it's one of the hard truths of life that we bring most calamities upon ourselves... that we're our own worst enemy. If only more people realized this, there'd be less wars and stuff, wouldn't there? Ha, how naive of me. Or maybe people would just get angry and lash out anyway. It's not like reason is ever going to be popular. In fact, a random quote I really liked today was "logic sucks. I hate logic." I love honest people (and I love liars) <3 There's a certain charm to doing either one well, isn't there?
So I was thinking about how a sort of mad faith in love is often a prerequisite to a feeling of OTPness in fandom... how one believes a couple 'should' be together, against all odds and because they're 'so right' and 'obvious' and so on. And I can't help but question these things-- the ideas of 'rightness' and inevitability in general just seem fishy to me. Or perhaps what I really mean is, they seem too easy.
Imagine this: "Why do I love you? Because I have to love you. Because if I don't love you, I'd die."
Does that sound romantic or just messed up? I don't know if I think it's romantic, anyway. Who wants one's free will taken away, even by love? So... so perhaps it's the inherent possibility of failure in love that makes it interesting-- that makes it worth chasing, worth believing in. Maybe. And if that's true, then all those H/D fics I'd disliked because they didn't have that sense of 'faith' in the pairing-- maybe they were doing something quite necessary. That question of 'why not'-- shouldn't it be just as important as 'why', in the first place?
Basically, can you -have- an OTP if you think (or maybe, don't -want- to think, at least sometimes) the two people are not really bound to live happily ever after?
I think you can, but it's so rare, I forget sometimes; and it's not like I'm after the angst for angst's sake or anything-- in some ways I just find it more meaningful if people are together in spite of it being hopeless. Which is why Sirius being dead and in some ways, abandoned by Remus has never really discouraged me from shipping S/R-- and which is why Harry's disregard and loathing of Draco never really messed up my idea of H/D but rather fed it. But so, so often, characters and pairings get idealized or beautified in fanfic & fandom in general-- somehow made more attractive, more compatible, more likable, more durable together. It makes things lose their edge for me-- their poignancy, their immediacy. And I admit, I'm addicted to that edge. Seeing Harry be too nice to Draco without a lot of resentment to go through beforehand just sort of... bores me these days. It just feels... like bland oatmeal you've eaten too much of. And angst... I'm burnt out on the angst, too, actually, 'cause it feels so neverending.
So what about this: "Sometimes I love you. Today, maybe. Maybe not tomorrow. I forget that I love you, but then I remember, and it's like I'd never forgotten. I know I deceive myself, but I still don't know in which direction. So I stay with you, trying to figure out who we are together, and as long as I'm teetering on the edge of knowledge, I will never leave your side."
Perhaps that's too much melodrama, too.
Certainty bothers me, and of course I yearn for it as well. In some ways I hate certainty, even as it's inevitable; perhaps I hate it -because- feeling certain that way isn't something I can escape. When I loved, I was 100% certain of my feelings and how true they were-- and then things failed anyway, time after time. Certainty doesn't save you-- it leaves you vulnerable instead. Questioning at the right time, with the right question, is what can save you.
I don't want to believe in any pairing if that faith makes me certain; I don't want to have faith if that means it blinds me to the eventual death of all things. And even if some things don't die, after all-- shouldn't that be a pleasant surprise or something? It's... better that way, isn't it?
Like, this is one of my favorite quotes, though it doesn't apply to me as far as believing in God:
Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God idea, not God Himself.
-- Miguel de Unamuno
It's because only in theory-- or in stories-- can things be certain; whenever something is applied to reality, that sense of orderly progression towards a predetermined goal completely disappears. There's no telling what will happen in life; and while stories aren't life, I think they're at their best when they capture that "element of despair even in their consolation". I mean, that's what I'm really asking: can you truly write about love or faith without writing about despair? Well, hope and despair-- but can one exist without the other?
I think I just always, always struggle with the concept of faith; perhaps not faith itself but a type of faith-- naive, perhaps? In my childhood, I believed things with the fervor of those who'd never lost anything... but I don't know... isn't innocent love kind of overrated...? I'm not sure what I'm saying... it's not that it's overrated but perhaps over-glorified. In itself, it's beautiful because it contains a kind of pure essence that one can never capture afterwards-- and there's something to be said, a true beauty, about always yearning for and never touching an ideal. But it's the beauty of sunset rather than sunrise.
I mean, this is one of my favorite poems, and I've actually tried to apply this to H/D in a fic, unsuccessfully:
How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of every day's
Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with a passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints, -- I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life! -- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.
-- Elizabeth Barrett Browning.
This is what people mean when they say 'true love', isn't it? And it's the source of faith-- because if someone feels something so beautiful, how could it not last forever? How could it? It seems as if life would be senselessly cruel and pointless if this pure a feeling couldn't endure. It seems as if there's nothing that could rip asunder a union made of selfless love-- but then, you have to be certain that's what it is-- selfless, indeed. And it's usually not, is it...?
I think perhaps, at the heart of this concept of pure love is the idea of self-sacrifice. You prove you love by letting go of the needs of self-- if you can overcome the most basic urge for survival and dignity, for satisfaction of any kind-- even for possession of the beloved-- that's how you know it's 'that' kind of love, right? The only mistake people make is acting as if other sorts of love have this enduring quality even if self-sacrifice isn't present within them, but rather they are driven by greed, by the need to possess the other. This greedy love has a built in expiration date, I think-- it is beautiful and intense but so dated; it burns like fiery death, it burns to the bone, but then it's left to the long grey despair of lasting memory.
It's a modern idea that one can love greedily and selflessly at the same time-- because... that's what 'romantic love' is all about, isn't it? That's its central contradiction. You can have your cake and eat it too-- as if Draco could need to possess Harry and yet sacrifice himself if needed (or vice versa, what have you). But that robs the concepts of their element of despair and true sacrifice. That makes life and human emotion much more 'fair' than either ever is.
...This song is making me have a one-track mind, I swear to god -.- You could listen to it and see where I'm coming from.... Though it would help if you knew Russian (also, wtf is Fullmetal Alchemist doing making a Russian-language OST??) :>
Anyway, yeah... I was actually thinking of writing an H/D fic about how they represent the Seven Deadly Sins, but mostly about Greed-- the need to possess more than one could contain of the other. ...Though Harry's more with the Anger, I guess. ^^;;
In the end,
Love belongs to desire, and desire is always cruel.
-- Neil Gaiman
~~
In other news entirely, I really love Kazuma Kodaka. And shounen ai about ninjas, apparently, hehe. Especially when it's pretty much on crack (like the rest of her work) & has some insane monks in it. And also hot springs. You know how it is. 'Must defend my hot spring!' the ninja says. (I swoon.) ...The odd thing is, I feel in love with her work while reading her Prince of Tennis doujinshi. Obviously you never know when I start reading for a fandom I know nothing about and suddenly have that tingly ping! lightbulb! sensation, heheh. Really, it's a lot more fun to discover canon through fanon-- no mess, no stress! It's great <3
The sad truth of the matter is, now I want to marry Fuji ><
Also, it's really sad when cute mangakas have only one piddly short story translated :(( Wah :(( And it had an oblivious seme, too <3<3 Aww <3 My need to compulsively read everything by any author I like is kinda scary though, on second thought.
For instance:
We are never deceived. We deceive ourselves.
-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Yes, that's right. Whatever it is? It's your own fault. I love how unforgiving of the self that quote is. Basically, it's one of the hard truths of life that we bring most calamities upon ourselves... that we're our own worst enemy. If only more people realized this, there'd be less wars and stuff, wouldn't there? Ha, how naive of me. Or maybe people would just get angry and lash out anyway. It's not like reason is ever going to be popular. In fact, a random quote I really liked today was "logic sucks. I hate logic." I love honest people (and I love liars) <3 There's a certain charm to doing either one well, isn't there?
So I was thinking about how a sort of mad faith in love is often a prerequisite to a feeling of OTPness in fandom... how one believes a couple 'should' be together, against all odds and because they're 'so right' and 'obvious' and so on. And I can't help but question these things-- the ideas of 'rightness' and inevitability in general just seem fishy to me. Or perhaps what I really mean is, they seem too easy.
Imagine this: "Why do I love you? Because I have to love you. Because if I don't love you, I'd die."
Does that sound romantic or just messed up? I don't know if I think it's romantic, anyway. Who wants one's free will taken away, even by love? So... so perhaps it's the inherent possibility of failure in love that makes it interesting-- that makes it worth chasing, worth believing in. Maybe. And if that's true, then all those H/D fics I'd disliked because they didn't have that sense of 'faith' in the pairing-- maybe they were doing something quite necessary. That question of 'why not'-- shouldn't it be just as important as 'why', in the first place?
Basically, can you -have- an OTP if you think (or maybe, don't -want- to think, at least sometimes) the two people are not really bound to live happily ever after?
I think you can, but it's so rare, I forget sometimes; and it's not like I'm after the angst for angst's sake or anything-- in some ways I just find it more meaningful if people are together in spite of it being hopeless. Which is why Sirius being dead and in some ways, abandoned by Remus has never really discouraged me from shipping S/R-- and which is why Harry's disregard and loathing of Draco never really messed up my idea of H/D but rather fed it. But so, so often, characters and pairings get idealized or beautified in fanfic & fandom in general-- somehow made more attractive, more compatible, more likable, more durable together. It makes things lose their edge for me-- their poignancy, their immediacy. And I admit, I'm addicted to that edge. Seeing Harry be too nice to Draco without a lot of resentment to go through beforehand just sort of... bores me these days. It just feels... like bland oatmeal you've eaten too much of. And angst... I'm burnt out on the angst, too, actually, 'cause it feels so neverending.
So what about this: "Sometimes I love you. Today, maybe. Maybe not tomorrow. I forget that I love you, but then I remember, and it's like I'd never forgotten. I know I deceive myself, but I still don't know in which direction. So I stay with you, trying to figure out who we are together, and as long as I'm teetering on the edge of knowledge, I will never leave your side."
Perhaps that's too much melodrama, too.
Certainty bothers me, and of course I yearn for it as well. In some ways I hate certainty, even as it's inevitable; perhaps I hate it -because- feeling certain that way isn't something I can escape. When I loved, I was 100% certain of my feelings and how true they were-- and then things failed anyway, time after time. Certainty doesn't save you-- it leaves you vulnerable instead. Questioning at the right time, with the right question, is what can save you.
I don't want to believe in any pairing if that faith makes me certain; I don't want to have faith if that means it blinds me to the eventual death of all things. And even if some things don't die, after all-- shouldn't that be a pleasant surprise or something? It's... better that way, isn't it?
Like, this is one of my favorite quotes, though it doesn't apply to me as far as believing in God:
Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God idea, not God Himself.
-- Miguel de Unamuno
It's because only in theory-- or in stories-- can things be certain; whenever something is applied to reality, that sense of orderly progression towards a predetermined goal completely disappears. There's no telling what will happen in life; and while stories aren't life, I think they're at their best when they capture that "element of despair even in their consolation". I mean, that's what I'm really asking: can you truly write about love or faith without writing about despair? Well, hope and despair-- but can one exist without the other?
I think I just always, always struggle with the concept of faith; perhaps not faith itself but a type of faith-- naive, perhaps? In my childhood, I believed things with the fervor of those who'd never lost anything... but I don't know... isn't innocent love kind of overrated...? I'm not sure what I'm saying... it's not that it's overrated but perhaps over-glorified. In itself, it's beautiful because it contains a kind of pure essence that one can never capture afterwards-- and there's something to be said, a true beauty, about always yearning for and never touching an ideal. But it's the beauty of sunset rather than sunrise.
I mean, this is one of my favorite poems, and I've actually tried to apply this to H/D in a fic, unsuccessfully:
How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of every day's
Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with a passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints, -- I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life! -- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.
-- Elizabeth Barrett Browning.
This is what people mean when they say 'true love', isn't it? And it's the source of faith-- because if someone feels something so beautiful, how could it not last forever? How could it? It seems as if life would be senselessly cruel and pointless if this pure a feeling couldn't endure. It seems as if there's nothing that could rip asunder a union made of selfless love-- but then, you have to be certain that's what it is-- selfless, indeed. And it's usually not, is it...?
I think perhaps, at the heart of this concept of pure love is the idea of self-sacrifice. You prove you love by letting go of the needs of self-- if you can overcome the most basic urge for survival and dignity, for satisfaction of any kind-- even for possession of the beloved-- that's how you know it's 'that' kind of love, right? The only mistake people make is acting as if other sorts of love have this enduring quality even if self-sacrifice isn't present within them, but rather they are driven by greed, by the need to possess the other. This greedy love has a built in expiration date, I think-- it is beautiful and intense but so dated; it burns like fiery death, it burns to the bone, but then it's left to the long grey despair of lasting memory.
It's a modern idea that one can love greedily and selflessly at the same time-- because... that's what 'romantic love' is all about, isn't it? That's its central contradiction. You can have your cake and eat it too-- as if Draco could need to possess Harry and yet sacrifice himself if needed (or vice versa, what have you). But that robs the concepts of their element of despair and true sacrifice. That makes life and human emotion much more 'fair' than either ever is.
...This song is making me have a one-track mind, I swear to god -.- You could listen to it and see where I'm coming from.... Though it would help if you knew Russian (also, wtf is Fullmetal Alchemist doing making a Russian-language OST??) :>
Anyway, yeah... I was actually thinking of writing an H/D fic about how they represent the Seven Deadly Sins, but mostly about Greed-- the need to possess more than one could contain of the other. ...Though Harry's more with the Anger, I guess. ^^;;
In the end,
Love belongs to desire, and desire is always cruel.
-- Neil Gaiman
~~
In other news entirely, I really love Kazuma Kodaka. And shounen ai about ninjas, apparently, hehe. Especially when it's pretty much on crack (like the rest of her work) & has some insane monks in it. And also hot springs. You know how it is. 'Must defend my hot spring!' the ninja says. (I swoon.) ...The odd thing is, I feel in love with her work while reading her Prince of Tennis doujinshi. Obviously you never know when I start reading for a fandom I know nothing about and suddenly have that tingly ping! lightbulb! sensation, heheh. Really, it's a lot more fun to discover canon through fanon-- no mess, no stress! It's great <3
The sad truth of the matter is, now I want to marry Fuji ><
Also, it's really sad when cute mangakas have only one piddly short story translated :(( Wah :(( And it had an oblivious seme, too <3<3 Aww <3 My need to compulsively read everything by any author I like is kinda scary though, on second thought.
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no subject
Date: 2005-03-29 04:01 pm (UTC)Messed up. There's a difference between wanting someone and needing someone. The latter is bad, and not love, because when you love something you can let it go and live without it, though it's hard.
So in that sense, it's the messed-up unrequitedness fics that really make me dig my OTP. It's the fact that either, because of circumstances, could easily fall into the "I love you but I'll let you go" thing in a conflict, between the fighting and the hatesex and the angst. They're not bound to ever live happily ever after. Remus/Sirius isn't either, even if the git didn't die on us, because though they fit together in a funny kind of H/D way, there would still be confilct because Remus is the Good Boy and Sirius is the Bad Boy (not in the Hero/Son of a Death Eater sense, of course). Which is one reason I hate Happy-Endings to that OTP that are too perfect.
Whereas a lot of Lucius/Ginny I've read (yeah, strange, I know) is the bad kind of needing someone for some reason. Maybe I'm just reading the wrong kind of fics. But maybe the pairing is just pathological like that.
So er, no, I don't think one's free will is taken away by love. I think people think it's taken away by a pathological yearning for something that doesn't exist (a perfect partner that they project onto an imperfect partner to sustain & feed their need). It's not really, of course, and hell, as an atheist, I don't even think free will exists, but in the sense of being able to choose to live without something you love, I can deal with the definition.
And I love that 'belief-in-God' quote.
Anyway, yeah... I was actually thinking of writing an H/D fic about how they represent the Seven Deadly Sins, but mostly about Greed-- the need to possess more than one could contain of the other. ...Though Harry's more with the Anger, I guess. ^^;;
Interesting. Pride, lust, envy, avarice, wrath, & gluttony I can get. But what about sloth?
no subject
Date: 2005-04-03 09:55 pm (UTC)a pathological yearning for something that doesn't exist
hahah it's kind of funny how often that gets mistaken for love. Actually, one could say it's one definition of traditional 'romantic' love in the Medieval sense ^^;; But yeah, in some ways I don't think free will exists, but I do believe one can create it (that is, choose to act as an instrument of one's true Will-- though it's a lot of work).
I kind of like need and believe a certain amount of it exists within love-- I mean, it's natural, it doesn't have to be bad-- but yeah, it does turn dysfunctional (jealousy & misunderstanding & possessiveness-ridden) so often that I'm tired of kowtowing to it in so many of the stories I see. And I admit I have an unhealthy fascination with unrequited love, which has plenty of obsessive stalkery need elements, they just get stymied and such....
I think any fic with Lucius is messed-up and has him being a possessive overbearing psycho... probably because he is -.- I mean, it's Lucius-- he's a pretty pathological guy :> Plus pairing him with any female much younger than he is is a recipe for disaster, which isn't to say he wouldn't enjoy it. But that could be my strong need for some sort of power balance or equality in relationships speaking...
Sloth, huh :D Mmmm, sorry, am distracted by 'wrath'. That's a great word.
Heheheh DRACO'S WRATH. THE WRATH OF DRACO. I love it >:D
....Hey, well, Draco's a neat-freak, and Harry's pretty messy... *laughs*
no subject
Date: 2005-04-04 12:41 am (UTC)I like to use the old words cos they sound all cool and melodramatic.
I think Draco's only a neat-freak in your head. In mine he's too lazy to be one.
no subject
Date: 2005-03-29 07:52 pm (UTC)That seems quite quotable, actually. :D