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reenkaThinking about Harry/Snape in particular (of all things), it just struck me as... funny to judge & dismiss a pairing based on the idea of "it would never happen" due to antipathy (not just in canon, but in general), especially if one supposes Harry/Draco could happen or Remus/Snape could happen. Sometimes I don't see why a certain pairing would make sense 'cause the two characters just don't have anything I can imagine them saying to each other at all past party-talk (like, uh, Harry/Lavender to be really random), but the anti-H/S spiel goes down another track, right.
I've never been the sort of person who thought -any- two given characters could be made to hit it off together believably (and in fact I think that's total hogwash), 'cause from personal experience I know I just don't like a lot of people (one could say most people) 'that way'. I just don't. There are plenty of people I guarantee you that I'd never sleep with in a gazillion years no matter -what- happened. Say, my uncle. I would so never touch my uncle with a trillion foot pole, y'know? I don't care what you do in a fanfic to 'justify' it, he's a really ugly, greasy, loud, fat, hairy & obnoxious old man! And we have nothing in common! No way would I ever touch my uncle! You couldn't pay me enough! Seriously! A donkey would almost be better, because at least I wouldn't know what the donkey was saying!
And you could say, "well, Harry feels the same way about Snape" (that is, Snape is greasy, stinky & annoying just like my uncle, except not as fat). Except... well, see... I don't have all these issues and backstory with my uncle; if you wrote RPF about it, there's no pay-off, really-- no meaty underbelly. In fic, I think it's perfectly acceptable to write about how two people don't fit, and how they're horrible to each other and how they make each other miserable-- if you can make their issues together interesting and telling about their characters.
I think the fallacy people are operating under is the assumption that writing (or shipping) a pairing means you'll believe it'll be successful in the long-term.
I don't actually believe H/D is that likely to be successful long-term-- and Sirius/Remus definitely isn't, since y'know, hard to have fun when you're dead. People say, "but Ron & Hermione will divorce! why would you ship that?" and I'm like, 'so? everyone gets a divorce these days! who cares?' The real interest in writing about two people is what kind of stories there are to tell about them, isn't it? How much those stories reflect on those characters, how much do they reflect on their world, and how much meaning could you generate through their interaction, right?
No, Harry/Snape won't work long-term or probably even on the morning after; yes, Harry thinks Snape is an ugly mean old greasy git, and yes, Snape is asexual and/or repressed and rather childish, cruel and petty-- but isn't that the interesting part? I mean, I really have to say that 'workable' pairings which show promise of being stable and healthy are kind of... boring, aren't they? Instead of therapy, you can apparently get a partner that suits your needs just right, too. Yeay? And that's pretty much why you won't catch me shipping things like, uh, Harry/Luna-- 'cause Luna understands (yeay?)-- or Draco/Pansy or Harry/Hermione or even Snape/Draco-- 'cause Pansy won't judge him or give poor harassed Draco a hard time. But I want Draco to have a hard time! Isn't that what makes for interesting stories? Angst, my pretties! Drama! Passion! Misunderstandings!
Because let's face it, calm and balanced discussions is what you have with your friends (if you're lucky like that); not that I'm saying understanding each other is bad for a relationship (in fact it's essential so that you don't go insane fast and/or get violent)-- it's just that if you understand each other too well (near perfectly, that is), then what's the spark? What's the point? Why have wild sex when you can crochet and then go out to a nice movie with your pal, your bud, y'know, your lover who shares your most important interests and understands exactly what you mean so that you don't even have to say it!
There's just something about the idea of pairing people who suit each other's needs 'just right' (which is oh-so-prevalent in romance of all sorts, btw) which rubs me the wrong way, man. Every other love-story I read is about how two people were meant to be together because they fit perfectly! Because one is an innie to the other's outie! Because one is white & the other's black! Because one likes sugar and the other likes salt! Because they both want children and yet one likes their music heavy & the other likes it hard! It's perfect! How... perfect for them!
I'm sick of it. No one fits each other perfectly, man. It's all a lie. People get on each other's nerves, you often dislike your best friends' behavior, and there's no such thing as a person so Right that they're not a total asshole sometimes and you want to bonk them over the head with a frying pan. Except it hurts more to realize that when you're supposed to be Omg So Perfect together and one day you wake up and realize you're different people and you'll always have misunderstandings anyway, except you can't leave them and sometimes you don't even know why anymore 'cause every little tiny thing they do really pisses you off.
Bottom line, I'm saying that mutual understanding isn't something you just magically have with the people you don't argue with that much and who don't annoy you too bad. Understanding is something you have to work for all the time, and it goes away at times anyway 'cause people are Just That Stupid and let their emotions get the best of them all the time.
Bottom line number two: sexual attraction isn't something that only happens with the pretty people who suit your idea of a Cool Person To Shag (because, if you were to believe 99.9% of H/D fics, say, they were The Hottest Bloke In School apparently, funny you'd never noticed before)-- because we all have dirty (repressed) kinks, and a lot of people have sex for power, or to prove something, or because the repulsion itself is part of the attraction. Sexuality is a messy, messed-up, unpredictable thing, or people wouldn't actually have sex with sheep and even ugly uncles of their own free (albeit probably drunken) will sometimes, would they? Sure, it's messed up and wrong, but it happens.
I admit, of course, that I ship the couples I ship 'cause I think they suit each other really well. But that's not the same as it being because they get along great, or because being together is good for them, or because their mother would approve (omg no!) or because they'd 'comfort' each other (...that's a no times ten). I think understanding is vital, but comfort isn't-- and understanding doesn't necessarily guarantee comfort (and in fact knowing things about people can really be a burden). People settle down because they settle-- because they compromise, because they accept they'll never have what they originally thought they wanted, because they want stability more than passion, because they need someone by their side, because they want to make their parents happy-- there are a million reasons, and none of them is because they are just that perfect together.
Harry & Snape... those two would never have an easy time of it-- as an understatement. Even sexual attraction is a stretch for them, and just because Harry did it with Snape wouldn't mean he thought Snape was Really Hot All Of A Sudden, either. He could still think Random Hufflepuff girl X was much hotter, or even Draco was much hotter, or at least more bearable to look at, and he can't stand Draco either. Snape would probably think Harry was a scrawny, underfed, immature, squawking brat who couldn't please an adult sexually if he had a decade's worth of sex lessons. Harry would be very indignant, Snape would be pissy, and both of them would drive each other absolutely insane in moments, so.
So. They could still love each other someday, in a really twisted way. And it wouldn't mean anything else. And it wouldn't mean they could stand the sight of each other. And it wouldn't mean they wouldn't be mean as hell to each other, because Snape at least would probably be even more inventively horrible. And it wouldn't mean they forgave anything, 'cause love isn't the same as forgiveness-- it only means you can't stop feeling something else while you're enraged. And it wouldn't mean they'd ever admit it to each other or to themselves.
It would just mean... what would it mean? That's why you write the story. But I like to think it would mean they're just the same as the rest of us. Because in some cosmic way, I like to think we're all strangers, and we're all lost, and we're all on the verge of strangling and saving each other at the same time; always on the brink of destruction and salvation, hope and dust. Because hope is everywhere, and because nothing is forever, and because people really kind of suck to each other, especially if they love each other. Because everyday a new stupid shmuck falls in love with an ugly asshole. Because love knows no 'should', and the heart knows no reason. And stuff. I should write Hallmark cards, yes.
~~
But to be contradictory yet brutally honest, I love those stories where the two people are perfect and in love and everything is just precious, because I am a brainwashed female and I like fluff too. Um.
I'm currently reading a very fluffy (and oh-so-precious) manga about a cutesy-poo super!uke and the gentle-kind-and-honest seme who loved him, at the same time as I'm yearning for more rough-and-tough prison-sex-manga from Mika Sadahiro, except that has a vaguely omg-they're-so-perfect-and-meant-to-be main pairing too. There's no escaping it; it's just... uh... um... I think it doesn't have to start out all perfect, anyway. I mean, even though I'm obviously a sucker, I don't like to be spoon-fed these things too heavily. Um. I'll just go now.
I've never been the sort of person who thought -any- two given characters could be made to hit it off together believably (and in fact I think that's total hogwash), 'cause from personal experience I know I just don't like a lot of people (one could say most people) 'that way'. I just don't. There are plenty of people I guarantee you that I'd never sleep with in a gazillion years no matter -what- happened. Say, my uncle. I would so never touch my uncle with a trillion foot pole, y'know? I don't care what you do in a fanfic to 'justify' it, he's a really ugly, greasy, loud, fat, hairy & obnoxious old man! And we have nothing in common! No way would I ever touch my uncle! You couldn't pay me enough! Seriously! A donkey would almost be better, because at least I wouldn't know what the donkey was saying!
And you could say, "well, Harry feels the same way about Snape" (that is, Snape is greasy, stinky & annoying just like my uncle, except not as fat). Except... well, see... I don't have all these issues and backstory with my uncle; if you wrote RPF about it, there's no pay-off, really-- no meaty underbelly. In fic, I think it's perfectly acceptable to write about how two people don't fit, and how they're horrible to each other and how they make each other miserable-- if you can make their issues together interesting and telling about their characters.
I think the fallacy people are operating under is the assumption that writing (or shipping) a pairing means you'll believe it'll be successful in the long-term.
I don't actually believe H/D is that likely to be successful long-term-- and Sirius/Remus definitely isn't, since y'know, hard to have fun when you're dead. People say, "but Ron & Hermione will divorce! why would you ship that?" and I'm like, 'so? everyone gets a divorce these days! who cares?' The real interest in writing about two people is what kind of stories there are to tell about them, isn't it? How much those stories reflect on those characters, how much do they reflect on their world, and how much meaning could you generate through their interaction, right?
No, Harry/Snape won't work long-term or probably even on the morning after; yes, Harry thinks Snape is an ugly mean old greasy git, and yes, Snape is asexual and/or repressed and rather childish, cruel and petty-- but isn't that the interesting part? I mean, I really have to say that 'workable' pairings which show promise of being stable and healthy are kind of... boring, aren't they? Instead of therapy, you can apparently get a partner that suits your needs just right, too. Yeay? And that's pretty much why you won't catch me shipping things like, uh, Harry/Luna-- 'cause Luna understands (yeay?)-- or Draco/Pansy or Harry/Hermione or even Snape/Draco-- 'cause Pansy won't judge him or give poor harassed Draco a hard time. But I want Draco to have a hard time! Isn't that what makes for interesting stories? Angst, my pretties! Drama! Passion! Misunderstandings!
Because let's face it, calm and balanced discussions is what you have with your friends (if you're lucky like that); not that I'm saying understanding each other is bad for a relationship (in fact it's essential so that you don't go insane fast and/or get violent)-- it's just that if you understand each other too well (near perfectly, that is), then what's the spark? What's the point? Why have wild sex when you can crochet and then go out to a nice movie with your pal, your bud, y'know, your lover who shares your most important interests and understands exactly what you mean so that you don't even have to say it!
There's just something about the idea of pairing people who suit each other's needs 'just right' (which is oh-so-prevalent in romance of all sorts, btw) which rubs me the wrong way, man. Every other love-story I read is about how two people were meant to be together because they fit perfectly! Because one is an innie to the other's outie! Because one is white & the other's black! Because one likes sugar and the other likes salt! Because they both want children and yet one likes their music heavy & the other likes it hard! It's perfect! How... perfect for them!
I'm sick of it. No one fits each other perfectly, man. It's all a lie. People get on each other's nerves, you often dislike your best friends' behavior, and there's no such thing as a person so Right that they're not a total asshole sometimes and you want to bonk them over the head with a frying pan. Except it hurts more to realize that when you're supposed to be Omg So Perfect together and one day you wake up and realize you're different people and you'll always have misunderstandings anyway, except you can't leave them and sometimes you don't even know why anymore 'cause every little tiny thing they do really pisses you off.
Bottom line, I'm saying that mutual understanding isn't something you just magically have with the people you don't argue with that much and who don't annoy you too bad. Understanding is something you have to work for all the time, and it goes away at times anyway 'cause people are Just That Stupid and let their emotions get the best of them all the time.
Bottom line number two: sexual attraction isn't something that only happens with the pretty people who suit your idea of a Cool Person To Shag (because, if you were to believe 99.9% of H/D fics, say, they were The Hottest Bloke In School apparently, funny you'd never noticed before)-- because we all have dirty (repressed) kinks, and a lot of people have sex for power, or to prove something, or because the repulsion itself is part of the attraction. Sexuality is a messy, messed-up, unpredictable thing, or people wouldn't actually have sex with sheep and even ugly uncles of their own free (albeit probably drunken) will sometimes, would they? Sure, it's messed up and wrong, but it happens.
I admit, of course, that I ship the couples I ship 'cause I think they suit each other really well. But that's not the same as it being because they get along great, or because being together is good for them, or because their mother would approve (omg no!) or because they'd 'comfort' each other (...that's a no times ten). I think understanding is vital, but comfort isn't-- and understanding doesn't necessarily guarantee comfort (and in fact knowing things about people can really be a burden). People settle down because they settle-- because they compromise, because they accept they'll never have what they originally thought they wanted, because they want stability more than passion, because they need someone by their side, because they want to make their parents happy-- there are a million reasons, and none of them is because they are just that perfect together.
Harry & Snape... those two would never have an easy time of it-- as an understatement. Even sexual attraction is a stretch for them, and just because Harry did it with Snape wouldn't mean he thought Snape was Really Hot All Of A Sudden, either. He could still think Random Hufflepuff girl X was much hotter, or even Draco was much hotter, or at least more bearable to look at, and he can't stand Draco either. Snape would probably think Harry was a scrawny, underfed, immature, squawking brat who couldn't please an adult sexually if he had a decade's worth of sex lessons. Harry would be very indignant, Snape would be pissy, and both of them would drive each other absolutely insane in moments, so.
So. They could still love each other someday, in a really twisted way. And it wouldn't mean anything else. And it wouldn't mean they could stand the sight of each other. And it wouldn't mean they wouldn't be mean as hell to each other, because Snape at least would probably be even more inventively horrible. And it wouldn't mean they forgave anything, 'cause love isn't the same as forgiveness-- it only means you can't stop feeling something else while you're enraged. And it wouldn't mean they'd ever admit it to each other or to themselves.
It would just mean... what would it mean? That's why you write the story. But I like to think it would mean they're just the same as the rest of us. Because in some cosmic way, I like to think we're all strangers, and we're all lost, and we're all on the verge of strangling and saving each other at the same time; always on the brink of destruction and salvation, hope and dust. Because hope is everywhere, and because nothing is forever, and because people really kind of suck to each other, especially if they love each other. Because everyday a new stupid shmuck falls in love with an ugly asshole. Because love knows no 'should', and the heart knows no reason. And stuff. I should write Hallmark cards, yes.
~~
But to be contradictory yet brutally honest, I love those stories where the two people are perfect and in love and everything is just precious, because I am a brainwashed female and I like fluff too. Um.
I'm currently reading a very fluffy (and oh-so-precious) manga about a cutesy-poo super!uke and the gentle-kind-and-honest seme who loved him, at the same time as I'm yearning for more rough-and-tough prison-sex-manga from Mika Sadahiro, except that has a vaguely omg-they're-so-perfect-and-meant-to-be main pairing too. There's no escaping it; it's just... uh... um... I think it doesn't have to start out all perfect, anyway. I mean, even though I'm obviously a sucker, I don't like to be spoon-fed these things too heavily. Um. I'll just go now.
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no subject
Date: 2005-02-21 07:08 am (UTC)Amen. I don't know why so many people have problems with this, instead of accepting it and trying to have some fun with the fact.
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Date: 2005-02-22 04:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-21 08:22 am (UTC)I always think that the reason a person writes any pairing is just that they want to write that pairing. Something about those two characters makes the writer want to put them together and add sex to it--different dynamic=different sex.
Also, it's one thing to explain why you can't see a character ever liking another character that way (thus you really can't convincingly write the pairing) and quite another to say they just wouldn't be good for each other in your view because what's that got to do with it? I tend to think R/Hr would end in divorce--but that doesn't make it any less realistic since people get divorced all the time. It's kind of weird to give your fictional character the kind of romantic radar real people completely don't have, so anybody who wouldn't be completely good for them automatically strikes them as unattractive.
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Date: 2005-02-22 04:20 am (UTC)I can't write quite a number of pairings 'cause I can't see two characters liking each other, see, but I accept that as my limitation. That's like, why I used to try to write the pairings I couldn't see, back when I cared anyway, to get rid of that limitation. I mean, of course canonicaly Snape really -does- strike Harry as unattractive, so there's that :D But given that they have something else bringing them together, the unattractiveness doesn't have to stop anything; you don't have to find someone attractive to want to have sex with them... well, in a messed up way of course. Not sure why I'm arguing for that, though... not that I -want- to see it happen, but I think it's just that the whole impossibility thing was always my rallying cry with H/D, so it just got pinged I guess ^^;
no subject
Date: 2005-02-21 08:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-22 04:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-02-21 07:49 pm (UTC)No one fits each other perfectly, man.
Exactly, which is why the Slytherin/Slytherin pairings are so intriguing (minus Snucius, but don't get me started on that. *Vomit*). I don't ship Snape/Draco because I think they're perfect for each other... there's SO much that can go wrong, despite their mutually congratulatory nature. I mean, dude. Death Eating. Dark Mark. Et cetera. And even in a ship like Harry/Luna. I just feel there doesn't have to be this big obvious setup for drama to happen... Conflict between two people in a working relationship feels more believable since there's more to lose, and more satisfying in its resolution (should there be one).
But somehow I feel that it all boils down to personal taste, so um, I won't go off on a Snaco-rambling tangent or anything. There's only so much "I H8 U BUT LETS FUCK" shipping motif I can take, but again, that's just my taste. The thing with pairings in the vein of Snarry (H/D, Snape/Black namely), is that the journey toward mere TOLERATING each other overwhelms all other aspects, so sometimes I find myself wondering, "Dude, where's the nuance?"
it's just that if you understand each other too well (near perfectly, that is), then what's the spark? What's the point?
Ah ha, but (as I've stated before) there's that much more at stake when an established friendship crosses the line, isn't there? :D
Anyway, I couldn't help but notice that you've targeted all of my ships up there *grumble grumble* :)) so just throwing my 2 cents in. I know we'll never agree on this because we have radically different approaches to shipping *g*
Um. Go H/D?
no subject
Date: 2005-02-21 08:07 pm (UTC)These days I'm reading manga after manga, and 95% of it is about friends falling in love after being established (actually, it's more like 99%), and obviously I dig that (and plus, Sirius/Remus)... and I admitted myself that I was being contradictory at the end, right, 'cause even though I say I'm sick of balance, I'm really quite obsessed with balance ^^;; It's just that implying that a friendship-based relationship is sooooo much more likely to work out seems false to me-- that's why I was going on about how one wants to whack one's friends with a frying pan, etc. So I was fully admitting that there's drama within close relationships :> I was trying to say we all piss each other off (therefore Harry/Luna can have knock-out fights like Harry/Snape, why not), not that only Harry/Snape-type pairings have antagonism and drama & interest.
My point (did I have a point? unclear, unclear... I was mostly ranting off about... er... I'm not sure anymore) was that it bothers me when people single out a pairing and say it wouldn't work because it's so difficult, because all pairings are So Difficult.
I mean, I love nuance in writing, of course I do (who doesn't?)-- but I think there -is- a trend of people looking for fictional partners which would fit each other best, stroke each other's egos, be stable and likely to be successful long-term. Perhaps that's not why people ship Harry/Hermione or Draco/Pansy, say, but I do hear it a lot. I love the idea of partners but I hate the idea of safety, merely because to me, there -is- no such thing as safety or a 'sure thing', and I find snarking/wildly different partners to be interesting too. I mean, I love friendship ships-- some of my most intense feelings are about friendships (like Kirk & Spock, say)-- so this wasn't about that but rather about an -approach- to viewing those relationships in contrast to pure antagonism, as if they're polar opposites, which they're not.
I think ships like H/S just make more obvious the issues that all couples have to face. That was what I was trying to say.
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Date: 2005-02-22 12:18 am (UTC)was that it bothers me when people single out a pairing and say it wouldn't work because it's so difficult, because all pairings are So Difficult.
Yep, I got that point. I only pointed out my shipping tendencies NOT because I thought you were "attacking" me (er, sorry the joking manner fell on its face in the previous comment ;)) but because I happen to fit the mold of one who: 1) doesn't care for Snarry for the reason you mention initially (that I find it not-believable) 2) DOES gravitate toward "long term" relationships 3) while acknowledging those "long term" relationships' many imperfections. I mean... that's half the fun in shipping, isn't it? The drama and angst -- the stuff that, as you mentioned, makes any ship interesting. *g* There's no point in me trying to qualify stance #1 because that's contingent upon how -I- translate the text. There's a big difference between saying "I hate Snape, therefore I don't want him to shag Harry" as opposed to "based on what I've read, I can't imagine Snape wanting to shag Harry". And of course, that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms about subjectivity and authorial intent and blah blah :P Ultimately, my comments were exactly two cents, nothing more and nothing less, since this post was more of a rant than a "let us dissect this" sort of clinical meta ;)
Er... I think I've confused myself even more. *Goes to bed*
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Date: 2005-02-22 12:55 am (UTC)I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of a pairing being 'OOC'... hm. I think some things are really really unlikely, but... I think if there's a hook, one can sell it (though that dosn't mean I wanna see it or think it would last past the night or various other caveats). I mean, Snape could shag Harry without him wanting to under the right circumstances, and vice versa... the characters' desires have to be taken into consideration, of course, so it'd be OOC to have him always wanting to cling to Harry & call him moppet or whatever, but if you included the canon attitude, then any psychologicall believable development from that would be IC by definition. I think?
That said, I of course find a number of pairings unbelievable... like, uh, say, Harry/Luna. It could happen, though, I admit that. I'm not sure how I reconcile this. When I say a pairing is unbelievable, I think I mean I don't want it to happen or that it 'shouldn't' happen, but not necessarily because I'm against either character or whatever, but usually 'cause I just think it's a mistake. And again, how do I reconcile that with saying, well, H/S is valid to write about -because- (not just in spite of) it being a mistake? That's where the whole 'but it's so interesting and has all these Issues & Drama' comes in (that is, I don't see the uber-drama in H/L, but I can be proven wrong, it's just I'm pretty self-assured about all things Luna-related).
I realize I'm confusing... er... I often confuse myself, too :> This is where I bust out my quotes book & proclaim that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds :D :D
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Date: 2005-03-17 05:23 am (UTC)and i have to echo duckpuppy with the puzzlement at the snape/draco or pansy/draco bashing in a post defending snarry.
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Date: 2005-03-17 05:37 am (UTC)Anyway, if you think about it, this isn't a post defending H/S (god I hate calling it Snarry, it's like a bad brand of dog-food); I wasn't saying "let's all get along and tolerate each other's weird kinks" (because bland blanket tolerance is boring anyway). I never say that, man-- I mean, seriously. I wasn't trying to uphold the goodness and light that is H/S. I was saying in specific that nothing is too fucked up to be real, and thusly I brought up people who in my own experience have thrust Draco/Pansy as the most 'realistic' and 'healthy' relationship for Draco. This has been said to me, okay? It just so happens that 'realistic' and 'healthy' as catch-phrases sort of make me ill. Besides that, I don't care if anyone bashes H/S per se, it's only if they're trying to give a specific semi-rational reason that it's even worth my notice. In this case I was just making fun of a particular D/P-shipping friend of mine, who btw is not you.
no subject
Date: 2005-03-17 06:32 am (UTC)oh, i got that -- i was just offering a reason why statistically, i don't think it's far fetched to claim biggest truth for one over the other. i agree all pairings have the same potential to offer real stories, as you know.
i call it snarry precisely because it's the stupidest name they could have found.