~~ style minus context = ?

[reenka]

The amazon page for Shutterbox, an 'American manga', says that manga need not be Japanese because it's an artform and as such is universal.

I'm of two minds about this. I mean, Shutterbox looks interesting, like I would enjoy it, and also I'm currently reading `At Death's Door', a manga-style comic by Jill Thompson. But I think of it as manga-style, not manga, because... it cannot completely recreate the feel & experience of reading Japanese manga. That's why I feel less than enthused even about reading Chinese or Korean 'manga' also. Even the different style of names bothers me (like, not all manga/anime has Japanese-style names, but it's cute knowing 'this is what a Japanese person thinks normal Anglo names sound like'). It's just not the same; it doesn't even claim to be 'the same', and since I'm reading a very specific genre, I want precisely that & I'm not saturated enough with it for any substitutes yet. So yes, I suppose that makes me a purist in this.

I mean, if it was just an art style, then it would transcend national boundaries, yes, but-- it's also a cultural phenomenon, I think. There is a uniqueness to how the stories are written/constructed overall, there's a specificity to the cultural references (even in stories set outside Japan). Like... it seems important that there's a cultural context to the work I'm reading, in order to fully understand it, and a work imitating a style divorced from its original culture seems... purely imitative. Empty in a way, because it's just in a "style" rather than being part of a living movement.

On the other hand, it's true that 'real art' (whatever that means) should be able to be taken outside of its original cultural context, and one of the main measures of its success is how much the work can transcend its origins-- but those origins inform the work regardless, I think. If I'm really interested in a story, I tend to be much more concerned with the intended meaning of its setting & the cultural background that influenced it. I -can- read Shakespeare, say, without knowing anything about Elizabethan England, but I think that once one -does- know, it enriches the experience tenfold if not more. It's much more rewarding for me, feeling like I can connect to the story on a deeper level, like I have a greater sense of its workings & its inevitable resonances to other works of its sort. Of course cultural & linguistic context isn't everything, but it definitely makes a piece truly 3D, I think.

I've seen discussions on this with HP, too-- like, whether it's important (and what does it mean, etc) that the books are set in some version of modern England. And of course it's possible to write fanfic while ignorant of the details/context of British culture & linguistic peculiarities, it's just that... it's not the same, that's all. Context is part of what gives a story life and grounds it, so without it, it's just... free-floating; it's robbed of a vital part of its significance. In the end, it's just that I don't think any artwork exists by itself, in a vacuum-- but especially works done in a specific style or genre (whether it be the genre of fanfiction or manga). And as a reader of that genre, I personally would be left unsatisfied if that context was suddenly... gone.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I know nothing of manga (should really learn), but it doesn't sound like the same thing. I mean, HP is one story where not knowing about England means you don't know the characters' world. It would be like not knowing that wizards get their letters at 11 or what the four houses are. But manga as just a type of comic coming from Japan...it sounds more like saying that Japanese theater is universal when part of the definition is that it's Japanese.

Certain forms can be universal but have different characters--like, I suppose America invented the sitcom but other countries can pick up that format without being very American. But if they took a Negro spiritual and did something inspired by it they wouldn't be doing a Negro spiritual, if that makes sense.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly-- you've hit the nail on the head... with the Japanese theater & the spiritual thing.... I think when one 'borrows' an artform like say, soul music, it mutates and becomes something else (like rock). Which is why Japenese rock is really cool in its own right but it's not rock 'n roll, y'know :)

With HP, I was specifically thinking about the linguistic debate where people were like, 'but we don't have to use Britishisms' or whatever, not just basic life-facts. But yes, it's different. It just feels wrong in quite the same way someone marketing a "Hong Kong style" movie made/produced/scripted in America as "Hong Kong cinema"-- and they've almost kinda done that with the smudging of like, some actor from Hong Kong starring, but usually they just produce it in America... and even so, it feels different. They can't help wanting to get in on the action, I suppose, though.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

The amazon page for Shutterbox, an 'American manga', says that manga need not be Japanese because it's an artform and as such is universal.

BWUAHAHAHAHA such a load of shit. This is really Bullshit-talk for "See, it's hard to market comics in the West because of their legacy with stupidity aka Fredric Wertham so we call them "manga" instead to try and get the market to accept them as something cool".

It's the same thing with the term "graphic novels". Dude, a "graphic novel" is a really long story with illustrations, not a fucking comic. Grow some balls, and call it what it is.

Also, looking at the preview pages, I wouldn't wipe my arse on it. Stuff like that should be a webcomic, not something people pay money for.

[arboretum]

I haven't looked at the page for Shutterbox yet -- is it one of those Tokyopop contest winner things? Anyway, a lot of (Japanese drawn and published) manga is pretty shit too... and apparently someone pays money for them. XD But anyway.

Re: the original post... I haven't seen a Western-made comic yet that actually feels like manga to me, but I don't know if that means it can't be done. Who knows. There's probably a lot of it that just has to do with the creator's cultural background, so maybe not exactly. But manga-style? I'd definitely like to see some of that stuff done here in the west. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well yes, I was saying 'cultural background' (as in context), not as in, 'the creator has to be of Japanese nationality', 'cause... well, for all I know a lot of them are actually of Taiwanese/Chinese/etc descent. It's not that it matters, as long as the background informs the work, y'know. So if a Japanese immigrant (who'd lived some portion of their life in Japan) wrote manga, I don't think it'd be that different in feel, y'know... though it might have interesting differences still.

I like manga-style stuff too :D I just think it's dishonest to call it manga, 'cause it doesn't feel like it and I don't even -want- to pretend it is. It's not a question of quality so much as... er, genre. You could maybe imitate well, but it'd still be an imitation, which is unsatisfactory to me at least, y'know?

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

It's interesting you bring up the whole "What do you call it?" issue, cos there was a similar article in the recent Newtype I bought about anime and Korean/Chinese/other Asian animations. Stuff like "Lady Death" and that other anime I once watched where Korean love songs kept on cropping up at the most bizarre times (like when the main character was on the loo... I shit you not) is regularly called "anime" though the article questioned this a little. Basically though, no one has come up with a better definition (like they have for the manga/manhwa/manhua one - Japan/Korea/China) for it, so it just all gets lumped together.

When we're talking about Western comics drawn in a manga style, that's a little different, because they just call it "manga" and not something else like "man-go" or something to differentiate between what's real manga and what's just a cynical and poor imitation fad.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm, it didn't occur to me to think of it as a faddish thing, but I suppose it is-- it really has become a fad, hasn't it. Ha. Well, I got introduced to anime through the Sci-Fi channel, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised :> Back then it was just that weirdo thing they showed at the end of summer as a 'festival', though. Oh, nostalgia. I was like, all starry-eyed at Vampire Hunter D and Venus Wars :D :D :D :D Hee! Um.

Well, I mean, I don't care what people in general call it, to me it's just different and not... er... what I'm looking for when I say "I want to read shoujo" or whatever. Not to say the Korean anime(?) might not be interesting in its own right... but it would its own kind of interest. Like, even if I don't have a name for it, I know it's different. Not that all manga/anime of Japanese origin is actually homogenous or anything-- there are a lot of different styles-- but as long as I can sense the same cultural background behind it, I actually don't care as much what the style of the characters is, which refutes the idea that manga even looks a certain way, enough to fully imitate anyway. Like, when I look at anthologies, this becomes especially obvious. The only thing they all have in common that's obvious is a Japanese sensibility, it seems like.

[arboretum]

*laughs* Yeah, I think I was meaning to agree with you. I'm totally useless in discussion.

Anyway, I just remembered about these, but do you know absenceofmind, by any chance? She's been writing a lot of short one-shot originals that are just highly reminiscent of manga in like every way possible. Granted, they're fiction, not actually manga, but reading them, I keep getting the feeling I should be seeing them in an issue of BeBoy or something. :P

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...I was going to check this person out, but then it's flocked :P
I -am- curious whether it'd 'feel' like manga (...without even being manga) though... of course imitation is always possible. Even though I'm not sure what one would be imitating 'cause there's such a range of things, so it's imprecise at best to say what would fit, especially if you don't set fics in Japan....

But I have read fics (rarely) written by non-British people that sounded British :D By stellabelle in particular-- I think it's a question of deep familiarity with the culture involved :>

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I haven't looked at the page for Shutterbox yet -- is it one of those Tokyopop contest winner things?

Sadly, I think it is. Yeah, people pay money for shit, but I'm allowed to be an elitist wanker for some things in this life, and comics/manga are some of them.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehe yeah I know it's just a marketing ploy, but it annoys me that they'd say something like that, and also I've been thinking about why I just don't want to read Korean manga. Lots of people seem to have no problem with it, but I can't get past the name of the writer being Lee Young or something like that. I'm rather shallow, I realize this :>

Though I think some 'graphic novels' are actually comic compilations, while some are illustrated novelllas like Stardust-- they're different, y'know :>

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I haven't yet seen a Korean manhwa with an art style that I like, which is a Big Deal for me when reading any form of comic. I don't care much what their name is.

Sorry, I'm just high on the snarky face-eating factor tonight, which is why I'm wanking bitching about people calling things "graphic novels" and such.