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reenkaThrough some twist of randy fate & boredom, I've recently come across several (H/D) hatesex fics which hit & missed in different ways until I found 'the One' (at least for this week). It seems there's actually much more subtlety than I'd thought to what 'works' for me as far as anger, hatred & violence in fic (which I profess to enjoy most of the time). This seems to transfer onto the sort of (violent) movies & comics I like, too. Like, in Under Grand Hotel, the prison-based manga, the main character gave up on his relationship as soon as he wasn't really fighting mad anymore, just tired-- which makes total sense in retrospect. Unless one keeps things delicately balanced, hatred & anger are likely to tire one out emotionally right quick, and then the despair sets in (which sucks). And people who stay angry as a personality trait don't count, 'cause they're dysfunctional in their own special way; plus, the necessity of therapy puts a damper on things soon enough.
First of all, it seems important that the anger isn't chronic & festering-- like 'anger against the system', for instance; if such anger exists, my satisfaction as the reader depends on whether the angry one is aggressive about it and fights the source of that rage actively and without self-pity. If self-pity, deep-seated dissatisfaction with life in general & depression enter into the picture too blatantly, it becomes a dystopia instead of a tension-filled adventure, basically. It also becomes the sort of situation most likely to make me stop shipping that instance of the pairing because it's too dysfunctional (this happened most notably with H/D in some of![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
hackthis' fics & ishuca's `Plague of Legends', where I feel Harry accepted his abuse at one point and that was it for me).
I've just realized that what I really want is just that-- action & adventure, which can sometimes translate (when sexually charged) into hatesex. At their purest, I feel angry sex fics wouldn't be dystopia-producing at all; the effect is positive-- energizing, exciting, raw, vital. Like bungee-jumping, even if it's over the abyss. As soon as the jumper looks into the abyss too long, I think the bungee cord disappears and then it's not sexy at all.
Also, it's delicate balance between anger turning to violence turning to sex & just pure violence and hate, which tends to have its originating undercurrents completely swept under its sheer tsunami force. Dark & negative emotions can add spice & vitality, yes, but unless they're v. carefully handled, they get completely out of control & become entirely destructive, which isn't actually 'the point'. The point is, well-- a sort of healthy destructiveness, like the forest-fire before new growth.
I think it's important that the violence not step over a crucial line into abuse, emotionally or physically, which is a very difficult thing to accomplish. While 'abuse' is difficult to fully quantify out of context, in a lot of cases I think it depends on whether either person acts like the 'victim' or oppressed party. The more both of them are equally seized by a sort of maenadic frenzy, the more the set-up works for me. If you have both be completely willing yet angry/violent/aggressive, it works beautifully, but as soon as one person becomes trapped by the other, it instantly ceases to be hatesex in my mind & becomes non-con (which I don't think is actually related at all).
This is why I refuse to feel sorry for Draco, btw-- I think as soon as I do, I find myself utterly unable to like him at all, and in fact it's the feeling like I'm supposed to feel sympathy for him coming from one section of fandom & the feeling like I'm supposed to admire him (WTF?! no seriously, WHY??!) coming from the other that's alienated me from him. I don't really like either admiring or pitying fictional characters, but especially ones that I feel need neither and are more likable without it. Same applies to any character fandom alternately pities and puts up on a pedestal, like Neville or Harry, though I'm physically incapable of disliking Harry, of course (unless it's a -really- er... 'talented' fanfic).
In H/D, I think the secret is really to make Draco pathetically willing while still unbeaten, though... well, it's harder than it seems even though he -is- pathetic and willing. Hitting upon just the right mixture of delusion & need & rage is a tricky thing, especially since Draco -does- have deep-seated issues at play... which he really needs not to dwell on if the sex is going to be hot. It only fully worked in this one particular fic in recent memory, where Draco never gets shmoopy or verbally submissive or too angsty-- it walks the line of making him nasty-mouthed (to match Harry) while not quite so offensive as to force either one of them to think too much (which is really the enemy of all hotness). It's really more difficult than it sounds, btw.
Basically, anything fluffier sets my teeth on edge as far as H/D fic these days, to the point where I can only groan 'cause the fluffy is what everyone seems to want in one way or another (bastards, wanting to be happy... hmph). I mean, at the moment I don't like fics where they have misunderstandings or anxiety or, y'know, issues. I want them to understand their mutual heated antipathy with perfect clarity and yet have it be clear there's a bunch of smokescreens & denial going on. And yes, it's a valid question at this point to ask whether I still read (and try to write) this pairing out of masochism. I think that's it, actually, ahaha. But no, I do love anger & violence (basically, high dramatic tension) in my romance fic in a more positive way than that, it's just... most people make it too depressing (or too fluffy) even if they don't mean to, man. Woe.
...And to think I basically wrote all this just to pimp J. Marie's hatesex fic, 'cause omg YES LIEK WHOAH!!1 Jackpot at last! Er. -.- What can I say, er... porn inspires me to meta? *coughs* ...Yeah. My only point-- my only greater desire for H/D is to use this sort of thing as a base and see where it could lead and maybe slowly throw in 'Issues' while avoiding having them think for as long as possible. Because, y'know... thinking can be poisonous like that, especially to relationships based on lust & resentment & er... 'Issues'. I'm bloody well tired of thinking about these things, anyway, and hey, I think my inner Harry's with me there.
First of all, it seems important that the anger isn't chronic & festering-- like 'anger against the system', for instance; if such anger exists, my satisfaction as the reader depends on whether the angry one is aggressive about it and fights the source of that rage actively and without self-pity. If self-pity, deep-seated dissatisfaction with life in general & depression enter into the picture too blatantly, it becomes a dystopia instead of a tension-filled adventure, basically. It also becomes the sort of situation most likely to make me stop shipping that instance of the pairing because it's too dysfunctional (this happened most notably with H/D in some of
hackthis' fics & ishuca's `Plague of Legends', where I feel Harry accepted his abuse at one point and that was it for me).I've just realized that what I really want is just that-- action & adventure, which can sometimes translate (when sexually charged) into hatesex. At their purest, I feel angry sex fics wouldn't be dystopia-producing at all; the effect is positive-- energizing, exciting, raw, vital. Like bungee-jumping, even if it's over the abyss. As soon as the jumper looks into the abyss too long, I think the bungee cord disappears and then it's not sexy at all.
Also, it's delicate balance between anger turning to violence turning to sex & just pure violence and hate, which tends to have its originating undercurrents completely swept under its sheer tsunami force. Dark & negative emotions can add spice & vitality, yes, but unless they're v. carefully handled, they get completely out of control & become entirely destructive, which isn't actually 'the point'. The point is, well-- a sort of healthy destructiveness, like the forest-fire before new growth.
I think it's important that the violence not step over a crucial line into abuse, emotionally or physically, which is a very difficult thing to accomplish. While 'abuse' is difficult to fully quantify out of context, in a lot of cases I think it depends on whether either person acts like the 'victim' or oppressed party. The more both of them are equally seized by a sort of maenadic frenzy, the more the set-up works for me. If you have both be completely willing yet angry/violent/aggressive, it works beautifully, but as soon as one person becomes trapped by the other, it instantly ceases to be hatesex in my mind & becomes non-con (which I don't think is actually related at all).
This is why I refuse to feel sorry for Draco, btw-- I think as soon as I do, I find myself utterly unable to like him at all, and in fact it's the feeling like I'm supposed to feel sympathy for him coming from one section of fandom & the feeling like I'm supposed to admire him (WTF?! no seriously, WHY??!) coming from the other that's alienated me from him. I don't really like either admiring or pitying fictional characters, but especially ones that I feel need neither and are more likable without it. Same applies to any character fandom alternately pities and puts up on a pedestal, like Neville or Harry, though I'm physically incapable of disliking Harry, of course (unless it's a -really- er... 'talented' fanfic).
In H/D, I think the secret is really to make Draco pathetically willing while still unbeaten, though... well, it's harder than it seems even though he -is- pathetic and willing. Hitting upon just the right mixture of delusion & need & rage is a tricky thing, especially since Draco -does- have deep-seated issues at play... which he really needs not to dwell on if the sex is going to be hot. It only fully worked in this one particular fic in recent memory, where Draco never gets shmoopy or verbally submissive or too angsty-- it walks the line of making him nasty-mouthed (to match Harry) while not quite so offensive as to force either one of them to think too much (which is really the enemy of all hotness). It's really more difficult than it sounds, btw.
Basically, anything fluffier sets my teeth on edge as far as H/D fic these days, to the point where I can only groan 'cause the fluffy is what everyone seems to want in one way or another (bastards, wanting to be happy... hmph). I mean, at the moment I don't like fics where they have misunderstandings or anxiety or, y'know, issues. I want them to understand their mutual heated antipathy with perfect clarity and yet have it be clear there's a bunch of smokescreens & denial going on. And yes, it's a valid question at this point to ask whether I still read (and try to write) this pairing out of masochism. I think that's it, actually, ahaha. But no, I do love anger & violence (basically, high dramatic tension) in my romance fic in a more positive way than that, it's just... most people make it too depressing (or too fluffy) even if they don't mean to, man. Woe.
...And to think I basically wrote all this just to pimp J. Marie's hatesex fic, 'cause omg YES LIEK WHOAH!!1 Jackpot at last! Er. -.- What can I say, er... porn inspires me to meta? *coughs* ...Yeah. My only point-- my only greater desire for H/D is to use this sort of thing as a base and see where it could lead and maybe slowly throw in 'Issues' while avoiding having them think for as long as possible. Because, y'know... thinking can be poisonous like that, especially to relationships based on lust & resentment & er... 'Issues'. I'm bloody well tired of thinking about these things, anyway, and hey, I think my inner Harry's with me there.
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no subject
Date: 2005-02-18 12:35 am (UTC)True. For me, the completing insight into nonduality concerned all hatred being self-hatred. Meaning in form is projected. There's nothing out there to hate. At least, that's how I feel. :P
no subject
Date: 2005-02-18 02:33 pm (UTC)Which of Zahra's fics, exactly?
no subject
Date: 2005-02-18 11:18 pm (UTC)Well, er... I don't remember the titles, but ever since OoTP came out (but probably right before that, too), her H/D has been really kind of... er... dysfunctional in just the right way to make me cringe and wonder why bother writing the pairing at all if it's that much like a car-wreck. Sometimes you could have a good sort of sexy car-wreck, but when there's basically nothing but resentment & envy & delusional tendencies... that's when therapy sounds better than more sex. I know, I betray the cause ^^;;
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 10:07 am (UTC)And while your backing up your points like any good meta-writer should, explain the appeal of that hatesex fic you linked to, because that was one of the most passionless fics I've ever read. It was like an amalgamation of every bad hatesex fic. It managed to be porn without being even remotely sexy, like even the author didn't believe it. And the characterization was crap.
Reena, tell me why I should trust you ever again on these matters.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 03:24 pm (UTC)Anyway, the 'point' of the post was to talk theoretically about the properties of anger in hatesex-type fics & also as applied to characterization in general (not H/D specifically & not the one I linked to specifically), though as I said, I did start writing the post just to link to the fic. Not because I thought it was great & objectively 'worthy' (I rarely ever think that), but because I was just happy I found something that didn't upset me. I'm on a sort of diet, fic-wise. I realize that my general 'blah-blah-this-is-vaguely-trying-to-be-be-objective-musings-on-anger-in-fics' combined with 'this-is-what-worked-for-me-this-week-btw' don't necessarily mix. But I always mix things that way.
So, I suppose you could trust me more when I specifically say keywords around a fic-link that say something to the effect of 'IC', 'well-written', 'intense' & 'deals with issues' & also don't mention my own issues to explain my selection (which I thought I did this time).
As for Ishuca... I don't really connect being friends to how I feel about specific aspects of any fic, but if it helps, she knows about it. She's pretty critical of -my- fics (being my former beta & everything), but I'm not even being critical of PoL, just saying it got too dark at one point for me to find it romantic rather than just dysfunctional.
...
Date: 2005-02-19 03:48 pm (UTC)Perhaps if you'd said the main appeal of that fic was that it "didn't upset [you]," then I would have avoided it. It's...honestly, the more I think about it, the more that fic seems to be some sort of hatefluff, or something. It's just as pointless as "Oh! Let's snuggle and be in love!" only hiding its purposelessness behind a screen of smut. Like, the hatred is so boring and meaningless that is becomes cheap. Hatesex for the sake of hatesex, like fluff for the sake of fluff.
I mean, you talk about how much you dislike it when characters are emotionally self-destructive...why the hell are you reading hatesex? There is nothing healthy about that (er, hatesex, I mean, not the reading of it). I mean, come on.
Geez, Reena. Whatever, I can deal with liking fic because it hits your emotional kinks (even if that's apparently all it does), but you don't have to get all claws-out when I question that. It's me, here.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 04:26 pm (UTC)I suppose I didn't make it clear enough that the fic-link wasn't a serious rec but I figured people who read me would know I'd specifically say if it -was-, and also I did say stuff about not wanting 'issues' & wanting 'positive' hatesex earlier. Which... okay, I realize should be an oxymoron, but... that's why I was going on about it, trying to justify the notion of 'positive' anger vs. 'negative' anger (...). Like, negative being where it's chronic & festering & out of control, and more positive being when it's purging & releasing... or something. I didn't seek out these fics though, they were all on my flist so I just absentmindedly read them. You're right that it's hate-fluff (I love that term for some reason). That's probably why I liked it at the time ^^;; Which seems kinda... sad, but that's like... I guess what happens when you avoid 'Issues' as I tried to say I was.
Meep? I'll try to remember you're not scolding me in the future :> :> <3
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 04:44 pm (UTC)I think someday I'll reach the point in my life where I know that even though I love you dearly, we have opposite spectrum taste in fic, and thus what works for you is rarely what works for me. Also, you're full of it with this positive hatesex business, but at least you acknowledge that you're in it for the hatefluff, so as long as you're aware of that we're kosher, princess.
<3
P.S. haha points for icon.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 05:05 pm (UTC)I like the sorts of fic you like... I think? At least I love (most) of the fic you write, and the writers you like in HP (I think?), though I totally go for more fluff than you by a long shot. But I'm not totally useless as a reccer especially if you catch me reccing something seriously. Though I can see how this post might have been misleading, what with the 'hatesex' thing which turned out to be hatefluff :D :D That's what I meant by 'betraying the cause', but then I can't handle Harry & Draco's issues lately. Ahahah which is actually kinda funny since most of the time we're totally on the same page with that if nothing else with fic, it's just that I've been feeling 'delicate' lately ^^;
Well, hatesex can start out negative and end up having positive effects! Like... it's not as bad as happily-ever-after after rape... er. Though I actually liked the "I HATE YOU" being like, meaningless and smokescreen-ey, 'cause y'know, denial. It's all about the denial in my head at least, and theyloveeachotherreally. :>
...Now I want to write a fairytale, 'The Princess & The Ponce', and it's All Your Fault :D ♥
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 03:28 pm (UTC)There are really several (though obviously not -a lot-) of post-OoTP fics, like `Splinters (http://www.obsessedmuch.net/dysfunctional/splinter.html)', `That Old Malfoy Charm (http://www.obsessedmuch.net/dysfunctional/malfoycharm.html)', but probably more obviously `The Greenest Eye (http://glassesreflect.net/hd/thegreenesteye.html)' & `The King of Sorrow (http://www.livejournal.com/users/hackthis/286859.html#cutid1)'. And though I haven't read it before, I'll throw in `Maybe Next Year... (http://glassesreflect.net/hd17/maybenextyear.html)' to show there's more H/D-type stuff than you'd have thought. You can still disagree with me (heck, I wasn't even thinking very hard) but at least I wasn't hallucinating those fics :>
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 04:15 pm (UTC)Generalization is all well and good, but if you mention a specific author, you're kind of not generalizing anymore. I was just curious, for god's sake. I didn't recall getting that feeling from her fics, thus I wanted to know which ones you were referring to, so I could go back and reevaluate. And, now that I have, I can sort of see where you're coming from. Which is to say that knowing you (or, do I?), I understand how those fics would not work for you. I really didn't think you were making things up, dude.
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 04:45 pm (UTC)Usually I don't back up stuff like that so that people don't get offended and argumentative-- like... uh, I'd rather be vague than point fingers at people's stories & say I have issues with them, and thusly I feel more or less comfortable doing it with Ishuca because she's my friend & wouldn't get upset with me. Plus Zahra has written lots of stories & I'm really bad with names :>
...But I'm glad I made sense in the end, or something :D And thusly I shall not meep in vain... even if it's really hard not to :> (*meep!*)
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 04:55 pm (UTC)Vagueness is fine, but if you mention a specific writer...that's not so much with the vague anymore, on account of, you know, it's a specific writer. Just be aware that pedants like me will ask for examples, because I'm an English major and thus required to be a wanker about these things. Whee!
Also, I feel honor bound to let you know that in your B/S icon, 'god' looks like 'cod.'
no subject
Date: 2005-02-19 05:25 pm (UTC)...And of course you -would- like meek better, for you actually like terrorizing me, I know you do. *points quivering finger at boa* (...but it wasn't a specific fic by a specific writer... it was a group of fics...) *is meek again*
I'm an English major too, but I suppose I don't count for most polling purposes :))