~~ Makino: feminist icon.

[reenka]

I get the weirdest feeling of... relief, watching my favorite Hana Yori Dango vid (to `With You'), 'cause... this is exactly the breathless sense of... non-gendered power balance I get from the best of slash. You -can- have stories where the girl can totally stand up to the guy without making it be another guy, without making the girl submissive, without making the girl uber-pretty or superhuman.

And it's not that I like slash -because- it's some sort of superior het substitute... but it's weird to realize that really I like (and dislike!) the same things about both. Whether it's het or slash, I dig on the violence... the sense of uncontrolled anger/jealousy/fear/need. It's like... so important, right, that slash is about characters of the same gender... that it's almost forgettable that in the end, it's all about romance stories, and love works the same way with any gender, doesn't it? Emotionally, it adds up to the same emotional pay-off, though... uh, well, the boy-on-boy action thing tips the scale a bit for me, usually. It doesn't matter if I'm really involved with the characters, though-- it doesn't matter what their gender is to how real they are to me. Why should it?

I've heard before that if you had a boy and a girl fighting, you'd have issues of abuse come up, and basically the (female) readers would sympathize with the girl a lot more (or less), or something. But those are traditionalist stories that don't count on the presence of strong female characters which aren't any more conducive to pity than strong male characters. And the fact that a fic is about two boys doesn't mean their roles will be balanced, especially given the huge feminization phenomenon both in fanfiction and shounen-ai. The average writer's approach to power issues doesn't seem all that dependent on the characters' gender at all, actually. It seems more like relationship roles defining gender than the other way around.

I don't think it's a question of misogynism (heh) so much as a prevalent attitude to what romance should be like. There's a cultural norm of a passive, possessed party and an active, possessing party, and it follows beyond gender roles though it clearly originated there. And as much as I dig the boylurve, it actually makes me happier on some level to see a girl who's as strong as the boy, just because it's inspiring, isn't it? This is me, being a girl, and so instead of looking up to superheroes with amazing powers, I look up to girls who don't need a man's help or admiration to move forward. I don't care about misogynistic fic because once one starts looking, one could find it everywhere and anywhere-- what I really bloody want is feminist fiction, and it could be het or slash or femslash.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

uhm - yeah. didn't we talk about this already, a year ago or so? *g*
i am looking for a particular kind of romantic relationship in both het and slash, i came into slash because it is so rare in het, and i hate most fanfics that are very popular because they pander to the same power dynamics that het romances to.


phew, i think i expressed myself clearly and thematically correct. you must always write without lj-cuts *nods*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, I'm always paranoid I've said things before. D'oh! ...Ah well, can't help it, unless I keep a log of all the salient points of all my posts, which will probably drive me insane quite soon :>

I'm so easy, too. I think I dig on any romance where the girl kicks the boy's ass, even if it's got little else going for it (even if it's FuriKuri, where the girl is actually this mad person with a killer guitar and she's way older and....) Oh man :)) Well, given the boy is not a wilting flower himself. Ahhh, am so predictable ^^;; Woe. It's still surprising and like, 'yeay' when I remember that not -all- het romances are like... Harlequins. I just had to post in glee (though Hana Yori Dango is an old happy button, you'd think I'd be used to it by now.)

Butbutbut... my lj-cuts spare people from my rambling ^^;;; It can't be that people actually -want- me to ramble, could it :))

hyd?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

well, it won't be exactly the same but it would probably be interesting for you - or frustrating - to compare your opinion. don't think it changed much, but obviously you/we keep forgetting it's not just the two peni.

so, this sounds like i should really get hana yori dango from ... somewhere?! once i made space on my hd? *eyes last disc*

i don't like clicking :S it's exhausting. carpal tunnel syndrome. oh woe is me! *hand on brow + swoon*

Re: hyd?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm always pleasantly relieved I don't just 'not mind' het, 'cause... uh... yeah. The porn. It... warps ze brain ^^;;; *coughs* Sometimes I think there are cocks, cocks everywhere... dancing, daaanciiiing.... er. Right, then.

If you have/want to get streamload (http://www.streamload.com), which is like, $4.95 a month for a gig of space, I could send you HYD :>

Re: hyd?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

heee! uhm. eeep?
well, i am still my old self enough to see how ze slash would greatly please old sigmund. all those young girls, who'd otherwise think themself the beautiful sex, being taught penis envy!
no, really.

hmmmmmmm, thank you! *thinks* how big is it? would yousendit.com not work? or is it anime and not manga *forgot*

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

what I really bloody want is feminist fiction, and it could be het or slash or femslash.

Oh God yes, and it can be published literature, movies, theatre plays or fanfiction as well.

Re: hyd?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's -envy-, really, so much it's simply a fixation borne of over-exposure. I mean, sometimes I think it'd be nice to be a gay man for a week or something, but then that's just...no :>

Well, my HYD manga folder is 844mb & my HYD anime .rm media folder is 1.83 gigs & the .avi folder version is 3.01 gigs, so :)) Mind you, yousendit allows up to a gig in email, but no resumed downloads ^^;; So streamload seems like the better choice ^^;

Re: hyd?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

If you want a teaser, apparently viz has the first chapter free for download (http://www.viz.com/downloads/manga/bof.php) o_0

Re: hyd?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

of course the reason behind the penis envy is slightly different, it is not simply "he's got something there, i don't, i am less" as freud sort of said, and it is indeed "men can have sex many more ways then het couples can, i feel inadequate, i am less" simply due to overexposure. if only good slash is around, het seems 2nd hand and shabby. and i could not believe it when the first people i know said they so much wanted to be able to fuck someone, but now i understand it completely. brainwashed indeedy-doo. i certainly never ever wanted one before, and even i can feel it, as you say.

eeep, that is big. more in regards to my harddrive as yousendit (that would probably work without resuming dl, also they have that new link at the bottom about resuming?). i must clear some space :S then maybe some manga please arigato gozaimasu!

feminist fiction

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

there is some. or lots, but i don't like it.

non-romantically, this one was very good (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1878067583/103-3210952-0927857?v=glance) in the translation that i read a few years ago. the gender roles are simply reversed, and for the only time in my life, for about an hour or so, i felt as i had never before ... i don't want to say anything wrong, but men have to wear penis-suspenders just like women in rl wear bras, simply everything is turned around, especially in language (does not work in english, i guess, as you have "one, somebody, a person" which is non gendered) and there is a very weird sex-scene.

Re: feminist fiction

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

I'm very jealous right now, because I've wanted to get a hold of that book for years! :D I had no idea it was even translated, but maybe I can buy that, because the Swedish one seems to disappeared from the sortiment... But yeah, I can imagine some things would be hard to translate...

[tetherhooks.livejournal.com]

I just noticed your icon!! *BLUSHING LIKE MAD!!* I am complimented like you wouldn't believe :) :) :)

Hmm, i don't read much fic (i can't remember that last time i read anything...) but what you're saying is pretty true all around in movies and books. Have you read or seen Orlando? (there's both the book and movie... the movie is very beautiful) I've only seen the movie and currently have the book on my to read list. Probably the only comic i've been able to get into for the past many many years is Strangers in Paradise. It centers around the lives of about 5 characters, most of which are women. They aren't all gorgeous (they're all pretty, but in a normal way... if that makes sense...) and one of the themes of the comic is looking for and losing love, though hardly any of them are waiting for the prince on a white horse. Anyways, i'm sort of babbling, :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yours is the only Ginny I've found that sort of feels like Ginny to me >:D Before, I'd had a nude model as my Ginny~:))! Which sort of actually makes sense in my head, but... er. *coughs* Okay, now I've got a model!Ginny fic-bunny, of all things o_0

But yes, I remember seeing Orlando ages ago, when I was in High School, I think (...that makes me sound old, doesn't it). It kind of disturbed me, 'cause that seems to be more of a movie about the mutability of identity in general rather than a direct rebellion against gender roles. Like, Orlando was more neutral than either male or female, and there was a sense of... restlessness and melancholia that stays with me after all this time, more than anything. I mean, I'm more going for `Gone With the Wind' (strong women! angst! violence! sort of!) than Orlando, 'cause... eh, I'm not necessarily into the gender-ambiguous or reversed so much as gender-twisted. Does that even make sense? o_0

But yes, Strangers in Paradise! Is one of my favorite comics! :D I've gotten a bit behind, but it's one of the few series I've followed for years now... it's so addictive. And Katchoo is pretty much my idea of the sort of female I want to see oodles and oodles (...and oodles) of :D Though Francine... man. She's gotten better, but she's pretty much your typical girly-girl romance fodder at heart, y'know, though she's gotten jaded :> Poor Freddie, I sort of feel bad for him. ^^;;

Re: feminist fiction

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

well, i read it in german (where the "man" works perfectly) and i don't have a copy myself, been wanting to reread it for years!

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I just quoted you in an essay for my psychologist. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

o_0!! :))

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I said this friend of mine was talking about strong women in feminist fiction, and I said I didn't care much for strong women and didn't think they made fiction feminist. :D :D :D

(Though I see your general point here, so I'm not trying to be cheeky.)

The essay was called "Me, Draco, and the archetype of the Follower." I would translate and make a post, but it got very personal.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I know what you think on this subject :))
And I'm willing to accede that you don't have to have a woman act like a man to be strong or feminist, but I do think that strong women are feminist, even if they're not the only thing. Depends how you defined strength, of course. If you stick to defining strength in this case as 'willing and able to stand up to male authority figures', then what's so unfeminist about it? That's where the whole movement was born, kinda, wasn't it :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Eh, yes, I'm not saying that's it not liberating. I sort of don't want to get into a discussion because I think we've talked about this stuff in so many forms now... it's my usual old stuff.

Anyway, feminism for me is about liberating all women, not just the strong ones. Maybe even give them the option to be weak without that being gender-related. Oh, and generally, that what I want to see more in fiction are rounded, real women (strong or not) because a lot of what we see is derived from a stereotype even when written by women, but especially, so gender-focused rather than human-focused.

I was rereading an old fic of yours: "he always looked so beautiful whenever he was sated." and I thought that that was the key to Draco. That he's never sated but he so needs to be, and that he would be so beautiful you want to make him.

... maybe.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I mean - basically I agree that they are feminist, but they are not the only thing. I say, it's when they are defined as the only thing that they become anti-feminist.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm never exclusive, if that's what you mean. I almost never mean to say something's like this but not like that. I want rounded characters of all types... though given that I like emotional/physical intensity & violence & such, I gravitate towards er... more butch women, because 'strong' can have too many different connotations. You don't need to be butch to be strong, and you can be butch & weak, also. I myself see strength as a function of endurance more than say, capacity for aggression or ability to overcome someone else's use of brute force. Many 'femme' women in typical roles have lots of endurance and resilience, and I really respect that and think that's strength. I believe everyone can find their own way to be strong, but I suppose that's something we'll always disagree on.

Man, I almost know where that quote's from but not quite o_0 Was it really from a fic? Sounds more like one of those lj-comment snippets. But yes, he does sort of make one want to protect him... and hit him over the head repeatedly at the same time.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Yes... but no... but let's not go there, it makes my head hurt. Basically I agree with what you say except from another angle, and what I call "weak!" and then say "see? great!" could very well be what you call "strong!" and then say "see? great!" I mean, even with the dom/sub stuff, it's not just that I thrive on it because it's my natural element, it's just that in post-feminist day it's become so stigmatised, and that always makes me want to subvert and reclaim. Meh.

Anyway. That was your Draco Malfoy is V. V. Gay fic. <3

You know, I wrote this in my essay: In a perfectly realised circle of Hero Harry and Follower Draco, Draco submits to Harry's power to realise his Identity accepting to be a child, not spoiled but with no control over the world, and he allows Harry to lose his control on his power, making himself a wall against it the power batters, and a wall that contains it.

This is how the follower reclaims his power: it's just a different power than we're taught.

(That was convoluted but it's really hard to put all this stuff in a sentence.)

I also started thinking reading old posts about Draco's realisation of the Self ... and went on a mad chain on thoughts ... I think RPG Harry really hates that Draco needs him to self-realise. I mean, he just doesn't want to. He's really bugged, even if he's not exactly aware of it. And then it made me think that after Draco ran... well, he ran. He substained himself for six months. With Muggles. He found a job. That's sort of a Journey, isn't it? Of a every day hero, the way the every day man is a hero when growing up.

wow, probably i should have emailed you all this.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, I don't see them in any kind of perfectly realized anything. Maybe that's just me and my jadedness :)) But my utter rage at my ex made me write DE!Draco again last night ><;; Every time I come back to it, it's like... I make it more angsty, ahahahah. *coughs* Then again, I've never thought of them in the long-term. It's always been all about getting them together even though they're both kicking & screaming. I suppose a part of me always thought they'd break up, but I could pretend they wouldn't when I read other people's fic.

RPG Harry is really messed up and doesn't quite know what he needs, from anyone including Draco. Theoretically he wants, even needs Draco to need him, but... he can't handle it very well. Anyway, a Journey is a Journey if one learns something from it, and changes as a person somewhat. Did Draco change?

[malafede.livejournal.com]

AHAHAH I was just about to tell you "but see, Draco wouldn't scream, you're making him..." or "but see, Harry would see and not scream afterwards..." (okay, not that last one) but then I realised I'm at an empasse. I'm so confused my brain might explode. I don't know when I'm talking about Draco if I'm talking about Draco in the canon or the one in my head. I don't know if they're different. I know other people disagree on his characterization, and while once I was OMG STFU NOOB, right now I am more like... I have no right to tell you to STFU NOOB because I don't know what I'm doing anymore... I don't know... don't know... so confused...

Right, anyway I like him in any form, JKR or mine. I just don't like the fandom one. Except for that one fic. That. <3

I'm not even sure I care. I like mine. Theirs, who cares? Except for JKR whose power I resent and despair.

I'm sure you can see the irony and identity crisis in this, but I can't be held responsible for what I just said because I have to coddle my Logic book as a homework from my psychologist and also am v. tired after 4 hours of writing essay about how much Draco Needs Not To Be Forced To Lead. Why were you angry? How angsty it got?

Well, he learned to endure, and be alone, and that life is a bitch and he can't have always a happy ending... I dunno, why isn't the fact that he did all that surviving stuff enough? Maybe Harry should tell him what he learned.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think you have to fully accept that you will always be subjective. There is no One True Canon, and even if there was, you can't escape your subjectivity long enough to fully know it, though you could make better guesses than some people through using sound arguments and observation. So of course they're different.

So I think it's reasonable to say both Harry & Draco, as is, would resist and resent falling in love with each other (if nothing else, it'd be like, WTF??! AM I ON DRUGS??!) Anytime you change your opinion on something important, you're not going to be pleased about it.

And you should tell me what that mysterious fic is, it's not like I'm going to leak it to the press or anything. Though now that you've built it up so much, my first impulse is to scoff. I mean, I love lots of Dracos... or at least several, especially Silvia's and Cassie's and Miss Breed's and Maya's... but anyway, I would never say they're superior, precisely, they just hit my buttons and the writing's so great, which goes together. Hey, I like Ivy's Draco too, and he's pretty OOC. So it's like, if you want to say that Draco is really The Best, I doubt he'd hold up under my full scrutiny. Heck, JKR wouldn't hold up under my full scrutiny, because I can seriously be the pickiest person in the universe :))

No one's forcing Draco to lead, are they? I myself just want Draco to suck it up, and hey, he does anyway.
Anyone can survive, man. Even rats. On the other hand, some people kill themselves, but then they have serious psychiatric issues.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

So he's learned that he can survive. And now he's learned his learning amounts to "pathetic", since it was obvious and everyone could do. Maybe that's life's hard lesson. Weren't we saying that Draco's Hero's Journey is the Journey towards adulthood?

Though I have to say it sounds less and less rewarding when you get told that even rats can do it. I can totally see Harry say that, too. *hisses*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahaha oh man, I'm so hard on Draco. Sometimes I don't know if it's that Harry's making me more of a bitch or I'm making Harry more of a bitch o_0 o_0

They're both ambitious though, aren't they. Draco's always wanted to be the best too, right? Not like Harry cares about being The Best, precisely, so much as he likes to win at whatever he does, if he cares about it. I think Harry has warm-fuzzy caring feelings and soft words for Draco locked somewhere inside him, where he can't get at them. If he means "I'll take care of you", he's likely enough to just say, "You can stay. It's not like you've got anywhere else to go." ^^;;

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Maybe Draco's lesson is that he can't be The Best, in fact, all he'll probably amounts to is this muggle-dressed ordinary guy with hair dyed black running through tables in his tavern in the Wales and serving roasted beef to mysterious hooded strangers.

Don't worry. Draco can take care of himself. He'll just hiss at Harry until Harry shuts up (not that he ever does, but Draco keeps hissing). Or, he did. You know, I think Draco digs the abuse. It's like, he digs it and hates it at the same time. "Abuse me all you want, just don't leave me." That.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...He can... he can... TAKE CARE OF HIMSELF?? ahahafhs;alkfj;lkdjjjj

Right, then :))

Although I do have a soft spot for Draco-the-bartender, I think. That and Draco-the-sucky-rockstar. And Draco-the-Muggle-High-School-student.

It's not like Harry was ever about to leave him, that was always Draco, or has that escaped his notice?

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Harry couldn't leave because he was never really there to begin with.

wow, that was dramatic. such is truth.

the mysterious hooded stranger thinks draco can take care of himself.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Harry was there sometimes! Draco always demanded all and when he couldn't get it, it had to be nothing. Ehh, I know his type. *bludgeons ex repeatedly*

Maybe Draco should give lap-dances to the mysterious hooded stranger, too.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

"sometimes"

no, the mysterious hooded stranger just offers cryptic pieces of advice, though draco has the impression he means them to sound dramatic pronouncements of doom.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Actually, a lot of times... they fucked a lot, didn't they :))

[malafede.livejournal.com]

okay, harry's cock was there for draco.

going to bed. <3 night!