- truth? -
Oct. 26th, 2004 01:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaOne would think it was impossible-- surely there's no such beast as an in character, entirely canon-plausible NC17 Harry/Snape post-OoTP one-shot.... Right? I mean, Harry/Snape is a pairing that goes against the very grain of canon... right? (Not that H/D doesn't in enough ways....)
Wrong. That is to say, I've finally found an H/S I could believe in. And I studiously -avoided- reading anything but H/S smut 'cause I didn't -want- to believe in them. But![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
thisveryinstant's `Truth' completely worked for me. I could... see it happening. Snape & Harry were... human. What's even more disturbing, actually, is that Snape became 'Severus' for the duration of the fic probably for the first time ever-- which mirrored Harry's own shift in perception rather well.
All without prettifying any of their ugliness or resentment or even the physical awkwardness. Snape wasn't the 'hot & sexy Potions Master'-- he was just Snape. And as another barometer of goodness-- Draco was well-treated, too. Not skipped over, not made into a complete caricature-- he had a in-character part, too. God, I love this fic.
I'd love people's opinions on this fic, mostly (well, given that you're at all willing to read H/S). Do you think it works? If it doesn't, why not?
Man, I'm trying to think of an H/D that's equally believable, and can't think of anything outside of Miss Breed's fics. Le sigh.
Wrong. That is to say, I've finally found an H/S I could believe in. And I studiously -avoided- reading anything but H/S smut 'cause I didn't -want- to believe in them. But
thisveryinstant's `Truth' completely worked for me. I could... see it happening. Snape & Harry were... human. What's even more disturbing, actually, is that Snape became 'Severus' for the duration of the fic probably for the first time ever-- which mirrored Harry's own shift in perception rather well.All without prettifying any of their ugliness or resentment or even the physical awkwardness. Snape wasn't the 'hot & sexy Potions Master'-- he was just Snape. And as another barometer of goodness-- Draco was well-treated, too. Not skipped over, not made into a complete caricature-- he had a in-character part, too. God, I love this fic.
I'd love people's opinions on this fic, mostly (well, given that you're at all willing to read H/S). Do you think it works? If it doesn't, why not?
Man, I'm trying to think of an H/D that's equally believable, and can't think of anything outside of Miss Breed's fics. Le sigh.
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no subject
Date: 2004-10-26 12:08 am (UTC)Whachoo talkin' 'bout, Willis? I take it you don't read much outside your H/D ghetto, but as of OotP H/S is more canon than not ... as Harry, on his knees again in Snape's office, would probably agree.
*rubs hands together, gleefully*
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Date: 2004-10-26 12:18 am (UTC)You're right in that I don't read much outside my ghetto (OUCH) but hey, I read OoTP too, y'know. *pouts* I didn't think H/S was any more canon after that. Sure, I mean, they had more "issues" & a new level of connection, but that's a long jump to a believable fic between two people who hate each other. Mind you, I'm a person who sort of wobbles weakly on the side of not finding any slash pairing fully "canon plausible" in HP, at least, so there you go, but certainly not H/S or H/D... S/R either, really, in reality... though it' -could- have happened (and didn't, I think). A part of me also thinks that if S/R -did- happen, events would've went somewhat differently, but that's pure conjecture.
While I agree there's definitely -material- for H/S (and H/R and H/D and, and... Draco/Lucius, too), that doesn't mean I find it plausible, y'know? Or have ever read H/S I fully found plausible before, anyway. Then again, I read -tons- of H/D and most of it is not-so-plausible, so it can't be just lack of exposure entirely :>
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Date: 2004-10-26 05:45 am (UTC)*soothes your wounded ghetto pride*
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Date: 2004-10-26 11:06 am (UTC)Well, I mean, I'm certainly not a canon-whore when it comes to shipping, but even so, I like plausibility in any story-- whether or not it seems logical for it to be there. That's even more challenging, isn't it? That's what I want, though. Make the impossible plausible :D
Truth!! <333
Date: 2004-10-26 12:38 am (UTC)??? I thought it was generally acknowledged that H/S is a very-well written ship--both in terms of characterization and pure writing chops.
My opinion on Truth? If you had just asked, I would have recced it to you long ago.
Re: Truth!! <333
Date: 2004-10-26 12:45 am (UTC)Actually, for me, H/S doesn't work in any realistic fashion-- but don't despair, for H/D doesn't quite work in my head either (I've always said taht). I never said it wasn't well-written (this is why I read it, after all)... but just that I don't think Harry would EVER EVER FUCK HIM EVER. Surprising, since almost all I ever read for them is smut -.- Never let me be falsely accused of consistency.
Anyway, it may be generally acknowledged, just not by me :>
Re: Truth!! <333
Date: 2004-10-26 01:04 am (UTC)no, really? had no idea! :D
I am the same emotionally-invested weirdly way with certain characters though... can't read Draco/Snape without thinking "dude, that's cold, cheating on Harry..."
but just that I don't think Harry would EVER EVER FUCK HIM EVER
oh... you see more Snape fucking Harry *nods* :D
H/S is often about Harry (to some extent) growing up. While you seem to like the kids close to the teens they are now. Maybe that's why it doesn't work so well for you? (Of course the only pairing that really "works" is Harry/Luna OTP BABY)
I'm not the biggest fan of Transfigurations (though def *very* well-written), but, since you liked it, ever read Resonant's The Familiar? Good and v. little smut.
*proud of myself for resisting the urge to bury you with H/S recs*
Re: Truth!! <333
Date: 2004-10-26 01:26 am (UTC)...That said, I've tried to write it. Because I'm just that perverse. Aaaaand, have you read my H/S (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/211408.html)...? BECAUSE IF IT SUCKS I REALLY WANT TO KNOW. Not really, but you know what I mean. Not much feedback on that. *sniffle* Therefore, if it sucks, do not, in fact, tell me~:))
....Well, if you want to get technical, I can see them fucking each other in a purely er... practical sense, but not in a more... sustainable/realistic sense, I guess...? I can both see it and not see it at the same time. I dunno. Same with H/D, except I'm much more invested in H/D. I do like to see characters growing up (say, H/D hopefully has them both grow up, but especially Draco), it's just that I don't like seeing them having -done- it already. So yeah, I like that about H/S... though actually I think Snape needs to grow up too (see, `Truth' says so!! heeheh)
I'd read `The Familiar' ages ago & didn't really dig it-- it was abstract & dark & stuff & didn't even have smut! Remember, me likey the smut! Me no read zero smut!H/S :> :> I did read it 'cause I liked Resonant but was procrastinating on `Transfigurations', though~:) What didn't you like about that, btw? :>
I really liked `Truth' because it wasn't overly dark -or- a comedy (which is what I retreat to 'cause I don't like H/S darkfic 'cause that tends to me romantic!darkfic or bleh-we-have-no-sex-and-are-miserable fic-- or it's just long). It was just... kind of balanced, I guess...? Without over-the-top melodrama. I totally dig that. And it didn't have wartime-spy!Snape shagging war-hardened-Auror!Harry, which totally does nothing for me. Then again, I can't stand war stories, generally, nevermind that I'm writing one~:))
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Date: 2004-10-26 01:04 am (UTC)Yes.
:)
(I really can't buy Harry/Snape. Most OOC HP pairing ever. YMMV.)
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Date: 2004-10-26 01:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-26 01:12 am (UTC)I'll memorify this entry and try to read the story when I get back from my holidays (am currently in Madrid with very little online time).
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Date: 2004-10-26 01:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-26 08:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-26 04:26 am (UTC)... I think I am developing another fandom hang-up, ie: OMG STOP WITH THE FATALISM. If nobody's written it yet, it means you can write it. Isn't it exciting? I would if I wasn't so lazy and inconsistent.
*runs in the real world*
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Date: 2004-10-26 10:44 am (UTC)All right, let's break this down:
- Cassie Claire's fic was never finished, and couldn't make me 'believe' in H/D because its only as-yet present point was that Draco allowed himself to be humiliated by Harry. I didn't say there were no fics that included Harry & Draco that also had post-OoTP themes-- I rather said there were no believable post-OoTP H/D fics, which would involve making the pairing canon plausible without requiring me to be a shipper. CC's fic managed to show a great possibility it never actually explored.
- `Inscription'... I'd read that awhile ago. It was romantic and intense and if I wasn't an H/D shipper, it wouldn't have convinced me of anything except that Harry was pretty messed up & Draco was... there and for some reason willing. Why? I HAVE NO CLUE, based on that fic.
- `Contingencies'-- again, I'd read that awhile ago, and while I suppose it integrated post-OoTP elements, I didn't find the characterization of Draco that realistic-- mind you, I was saying in `Truth', I found Snape and Harry completely in character. That's a -lot-, coming from me. I think that fic depended on prettifying the characterizations and taking away at least some of their ugliness/resentment for each other, which is a no-go in terms of believable as I was defining it. Draco was sympathetic virtually the whole time, as was Harry-- again, a no-go.
As far as me writing the sort of H/D fic I want... I wasn't saying no one -could-, I was saying I couldn't think of any I'd read, which is different. And as for me writing it-- I know I can't because I simply don't think H/D 'makes sense' to me on that deep of a level without changing either or both of them, and that is merely the truth as I see it.
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Date: 2004-10-26 10:52 am (UTC)I simply don't think H/D 'makes sense' to me on that deep of a level without changing either or both of them, and that is merely the truth as I see it.
See, that's how I feel about Snarry. Though admittedly there's more leeway with that one because Harry sort of grudgingly respects Snape, or he has reason to.
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Date: 2004-10-26 11:01 am (UTC)I never said it can't be done. Did I? I only said I can't think of any I've read. I never say things can't be done-- I mean, who am I to pronounce things like that, anyway? I don't think I do or did.
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Date: 2004-10-26 11:16 am (UTC)I'm pretty sure you could pair Harry with Ginny w/o having to change Harry all that much, but, eh. Does that make it good? I was never a H/D shipper because I thought it "made more sense" because I just don't value pairings for sensibility or compatibility. Mm. Like, Snape/Draco would be easy to write like stealing candies from children.
I think people (me included, possibly) change H and/or D not because they couldn't work the way they are but because they feel H and/or D have to change. It's not a romance-focused need but more a character-focused one. I think.
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Date: 2004-10-26 12:04 pm (UTC)It's a question of change within the story, and I think there was internal change in `Truth', for instance, so the characters weren't quite where they started out at the end-- that's the sign of a good story, as you said. So the point is to do it believably.
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Date: 2004-10-26 08:47 am (UTC)i read "truth" and the first seven chapters were really entirely plausible. snape is not a cool bastard who can be excused for everything because of having been bullied. what he does to the students is not!not really-cool-and-clever-in-reality. his unfairness is real. the first chapters basically retell what rowling showed us about both of them having to change perceptions, harry being able to do so, snape not. "truth" gently let snape also relent, although as all fanfiction it was very pro-snape. and i liked that harry lashed out, that was good and real and plausible after his stupor.
the fic changed in the kitchen scene, which was a very abrupt and unbelievable scene for me. the rest of the fic, very well written and all, was firmly placed in the snarry universe. it was not that noticable, because from chapter 9 on the characters seemed less chummy than in the kitchen scene, but it was the same old story again, snape and bad sirius, harry not being james, the malfoys in the background, ss and hp both having had some gay experiences, some amusing snarkyness and the cold hours after the deed.
do you know what i am trying to say? if "snarry" is ever believeable they cannot be having sex. that harry is attracted and aroused by this snape is what readers are supposed to project. it is not in the fanfiction, and not in the novels. the more "snarry" i read, the more i turn into a canon whore.
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Date: 2004-10-26 12:14 pm (UTC)You're right that it changed when they just sat with the tea-- like, yeah, would Snape really allow Harry to eat -with him-. But he'd already broken/cracked somewhat from his (as he was aware) unforgivable actions earlier, and I could accept it as the result of guilt and him wanting to "make it better" on some level 'cause he's feeling unbalanced and confused, I guess. I was very impressed that the cheek-holding... thing 'worked'-- that is, without Harry suddenly thinking Snape is a Sex God (god, I hate that)-- but yeah, once again, I wasn't as strict as I could've been, because yeah, there's the old elements still at play (they're just not elements I despise as much as sexy!Snape).
Also, the semi-sympathetic!Snape didn't strike me as 'off' 'cause he was also unsympathetic in enough ways, and I don't see canon!Snape as entirely unsympathetic, though you're right that the Harry-as-James thing is just overplayed. I suppose this fic just came closer than any other H/S I'd ever read-- closer than the parts I'd read of the Tea series, I thought-- so I was surprised. Very few H/D fics come this close, so I thought it was quite something, but I just didn't realize how many things I let slide (though I did notice on some level). Thanks for the break-down! :D
i wonder if it is possible
Date: 2004-10-26 12:36 pm (UTC)well, i had to look at snarry in the light of an editor, and i wanted to find out what ... put me off, without resorting to "he's an old guy abusing a boy". i know it is only the fandom surrounding him/them. so for the fic i beta, i keep trying to see what is possible - and what is possible is fanon-snarry.
i read this because a) you recced it as another non-snarry-afficinado and b) i wanted to see what the writer used to make it believable. as i already rambled about before, it did not succeed in canon-believeability, but yes, he was unsympathetic in enough ways. here is another but: obviously having
had the bad fortune toread much more of that pairing than you, i can only say that snape is usually a cruel bastard in all of them, it is part and parcel of the allure, so the second part of "truth" did not surprise me much, and ... it seems to me that an unhappy ending is seen as a surefire way to make a fic more believable?canon snape is not unsympathetic, his arc is like sirius's. *reigns herself in* i won't get into that, but harry is more mature than him in accepting facettes of his character. and harry would not want him agagagaga.
glad i was able to get your brain working normally again :) i do find it hard to concentrate on this as if i was writing an exam *g* so i will abruptly stop now and hope to have made sense.
ps: the tea series is the only one i have not read and my friends say it is the most likely to appeal to me. now you make me doubt that.
snape cracking is another thing common to all those fics. also harry's eyes reminding him of lily. and so on ...
Re: i wonder if it is possible
Date: 2004-10-26 01:05 pm (UTC)As far as the Tea series... la. That Snape seemed almost 100% sympathetic, and the main issue was 'but he's TOO YOUNG and DOESN'T REALLY WANT ME' angst. They didn't seem to have real resentment, I guess...? It was rather romantic, though Snape pushed Harry away 'for his own good'-- whereas I think Snape's more likely to abuse him. I don't really mind Snape abusing him, since it's not like it's a great change ^^;;; ahahah
Well, I think certain things are 'fanon' 'cause they're unavoidable, at least to some extent-- like, how are you going to get away without Snape cracking...? Doesn't he sort of -have- to...? Though what I liked wasn't that he was a cruel bastard but that he was so... petty, I guess, not glamorously so. I feel jealous, though. I wish Draco being a petty bastard was part of the allure. *weeps* :>
Re: i wonder if it is possible
Date: 2004-10-26 01:15 pm (UTC)and the cheek scene was so well written, that it overcame the canon restrictions!
sounds like 90 percent of fic i know. well, people copy what they like, or write similar scenarios because they want the same things.
oh yes, of course, petty and not glamorous. did you read "if you are prepared", theeeeee fanon canon on the matter?
that is interesting! i did not know draco's bastard-ness was never a factor - but
Re: i wonder if it is possible
Date: 2004-10-26 01:17 pm (UTC)but that's what i mean, snarry is the ancient wuthering heights/jane eyre formalu, the snarky dark meanie being attractive to an unlikely partner.
Re: i wonder if it is possible
Date: 2004-10-26 01:45 pm (UTC)See, that's why I was surprised-- 'cause usually the resentment in H/S seems more surface, whereas here it seemed more... real, I guess...? Well, on Snape's part. *sigh* I -like- the resentment~:) For some reason people seem to think it's an obstacle :>
I think with Draco, the attraction is that he's a git, yeah, but also that he's only a git because of Harry or being pissed that Harry's not giving him what he wants or something. It's like, Harry 'soothes' Draco (as per fanon, I mean), and Draco... er... relaxes. I don't think Snape's young enough for that to be at all plausible, though. Thank goodness for small favors, I guess.
Re: i wonder if it is possible
Date: 2004-10-26 01:52 pm (UTC)hehe, who's got the snarry aversion now *g*
that's it exactly, snape is older. much older. and usually draco is described as more attractive, at least more hygenic.
think about it though, there is more to your liking of the pairing than that.
although it is understandable that you want to explore other angles, and then snape starts to look alluring.
ps: yes, the resentment was real, i think also because it was grounded in class, and involved the rowling setting more, whereas other snarry is after class, which makes all the difference.
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Date: 2004-10-26 12:30 pm (UTC)as for canon plausibility and the h/d 'ship, i'm curious what you think of
but at the risk of seeming a little scattered here, about
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Date: 2004-10-26 12:39 pm (UTC)I mean, I enjoyed the fic-- as far as it went-- but I dunno if it 'says' anything about the ship, y'know? I mean... as far as dealing with Issues, which is what I'm always looking for. And besides, Draco will ALWAYS look at Potter. ALWAYS :> (Am biased but certain! heheheh I don't mean it in a shippy way-- I just mean he has to finally win, doesn't he? So of course he'll keep waiting.)
Am now all interested in the Snape/Black, thanks! :D
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Date: 2004-10-26 02:49 pm (UTC)And honestly (and I so don't want to be mean here, to the author or to your view of the story - which is fine! and valid!), 'Truth' didn't do all that much for me. It does keep Snape and Harry in character, but I've seen a lot of fics that do the same - if better. It was rather cliche, all-told, and I didn't feel that their sudden sexual view of each other made any sense at all... they just got angry and then horribly, inexpliquably aroused? I don't know... :( It just seemed to PWP for me, which are rarely my kind of fics. I need depth and intellectual angst. ::shrugs:: And I don't mean to demean the fic or your view of it - it just wasn't for me.
If you're interested in hellishly good harry/snape, check out
Hee hee. :D Hope I'm helpful.
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Date: 2004-10-26 03:21 pm (UTC)It occurs to me that the reason the sudden UST worked for me (though there were hints when Snape was holding up Harry's head to make him drink the antidote) was because I can totally see anger = lust, since after all, I ship H/D, and part of the appeal of H/S is the resentment (for me, at least). So if you can see resentment/animosity as sexual tension, you're all set. Like... uh... sublimated. That is one of the appeals of H/S, isn't it? That they can't stand each other, I mean, and how that sekritly means they're gagging for it~:)) At least, Snape has to be... not from Harry, necessarily, but still.
I keep hearing very good things about `Bittersweet Potion', though, so I'm likely to crumble one day (keep in mind, it took me... awhile to read `Transfigurations', the big 'new' H/D novel... a year and a half ago). Heh. I love innovative magic & myths & stuff, too-- though in fanfics my priority is definitely characterization & intensity of dynamic between the two (if it's a romance). A think part of what's kept me from reading `Bittersweet Potion' is the lack of sex, actually, 'cause if there's none (at least for a long time), then I just feel like I'm... cheating or something, ahahah (insane, since the more gen-like it is the less cheating it'd be, theoretically, but it's just that smut distracts me). I think a long smutless fic is just... a bigger investment ^^; Though I didn't read `Truth' for the smut but instead for the concept of Harry taking veritaserum-- sometimes concepts just strike me the right way (like I -knew- I had to read it when I saw Lydia's fic say 'Harry becomes impotent & Snape has to brew a potion' or Predatrix's fic say 'Snape becomes a table'-- I just can't resist some things). Hee :D
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Date: 2004-10-26 04:01 pm (UTC)I think good H/S has nothing at all to do with being romantic. That isn't who they are, you know? Harry perhaps, with the right person; Snape, absolutely not. He's a bitter, reserved, intellectual snob of a Machiavellian man. Not the roses-and-wine type, or even the sweet, considerate kind - he'd be selfish, mean, demanding, and prone to being in denial, no doubt. Harry is a kid. He's angry, he hates Snape, has had an emotionally-lacking childhood (i.e. he's no doubt maladjust anyway) etc etc - so, yes, resentment would play a huge role in any relationship they had! Absolutely. And yes, the whole thing with anger and lust can be hugely potent in any fic with sexuality - same with love and hate, or any seemingly polar emotion. I've just seen it done so well that I'm biased, I think ;).
I really do recommend to you
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Date: 2004-10-26 05:16 pm (UTC)Heeee! You reminded me of Didodikali's fics!! Eeee, I remember her from her Escaflowne days (and mine, ahahah). Omg, her Snape/Lily with the illustrations, omg, omg <33333333 (I have this... uber-sekrit... er... soft spot for Snape/Lily, and she draws them so wonderfully, ack). I love her art so much, wah.
Also: rambling is of the good. Does anyone actually mind that sort of thing? :>
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Date: 2004-10-26 06:49 pm (UTC)there's a line, to me, between writing about emotion honestly but hopefully and writing about it while insulting the reader's intelligence
I.e. there's good fic, and there's bad fic. I also think I've have preconceptions in my head concerning how I think my favorite characters should act - romanticizations, of course ;). My own 'canon' in a way (that aren't bizarre extrapolations on actual canon or anything, just my interpretation that makes sense to me... yeah. So, I judge fics' good/badness based on that, on the use of emotion and ICness etc. Hn. I guess that's the point of fandom, though, right? Interpretation and re-interpretation? And we all want different things - that's why we're here, I suppose. :) Heeee.
And hmmm, does anyone mind rambling... haha, I know I don't except when it's my own, sometimes ;). Because then I feel like I'm being incoherent. So maybe, instead of rambling, it's babbling. Hee hee. And, omg, I sooooo planned out this huge Snape/Lily story once - it was awesome and evil. I lurved it muchly until I got all slash-happy and it's now on the shelf of That-Which-Will-Mostly-Likely-Not-Be-Written. :D