~~ an actual pro-darkfic post, whadya know.

[reenka]

I suppose, as Aja said, the fandom -is- writing darker H/D these days, but. I still don't see any seriously realistic H/D out there-- I mean, is there something I'm missing? If so, what? Is there some realistic recent H/D someone wants to rec me? Hahah that sounds like a challenge, doesn't it. Maybe it is, at that :D

Anyway, here's a question I know oodles of people have been asking themselves (or... not)-- Why doesn't Reena write more fluffy H/D?
    Ah, yes. This reminds me why I resent the labels of 'angst' and 'fluff'. Human emotion is all created equal, in terms of influence; writers are not. I suppose sadness/anger can be easier to write for H/D, since they already have bad blood between them, and no development (or heavy-duty extrapolation) is needed. So laziness explains most things, as per usual.

However, another fact is that most of the 'fluff' I see is blatantly, painfully, extremely out of character. I mean, it's enjoyable to be sure (I do have a heart, you know), but unless you write a novel-length fic to back up those lovey-dovey boys, the suspension of disbelief required is steep. It all seems to take place in 'the happy place' where OoTP didn't happen. Or hey, GoF either, while we're at it. Remember the Good Old Days, when fics actually referred to the events of canon in specific??! How long ago was the last short story to do that?? No, seriously, man. Seriously. Remember when there was mention of the Triwizard Tournament, the Train Threat, the Warning In The Forest and even The Robe-shop, all in every third fic, fluff or angst? Well, no longer!

I actually really like writing soft & warm & intimate & sweetish things, just because angst can drain one. If one reads my non-H/D writing, one can easily see where all my fluff escapes to, ahahah. Just earlier today, I wrote what might be the fluffiest H/D snippet I've ever done, and it was a weird experience. It felt like a release-- like I was looking into the future and touching base with the dream I'm working towards. Generally, I write about beginnings rather than endings, so naturally I end up having to write angst. So yes, I'm seriously saying that having a non-angsty beginning for H/D at this point, particularly if you're starting from the beginning (years 6 & 7) is... well, pretty much unrealistic.

However, swtalmnd's anti-darkfic (sort of) rant doesn't address the issue of H/D realism, precisely. The issue was stuff like non-con & 'hatesex' (vs. sex between consenting individuals who like each other-- which makes me laugh, since I doubt Harry & Draco will ever like each other, but anyway). I've been called 'queen of H/D hatesex' or some such at one point, which is a label that bothers me; I don't -write- 'hatesex', man. I write sex between people who have issues that go much deeper than that. I hope.


    Usually characters don't have hatesex unless they are a) attracted to one another & b) don't accept this fact. I find this an interesting & valid dynamic, and I also find that most people don't seem to really -understand- it when they write it, and just have it be unemotional and flat (i.e., more -empty- than hateful). Actually, what I see a lot of lately is indifferent!sex for H/D, because hatesex should really be much more intense & riveting.

This reminds me of themostepotente's rant on a similar subject-- cliches that mostly centered on how H/D is all-hatesex-all-the-the-time (and by the way, I see way more ranting about hatesex than actual hatesex-- DUDE, who's writing all this hatesex?? WHERE??). Which... I mean... all right, if you don't want antagonistic fucking, you're going to have to put in a lot of work getting these characters to that point, and you're going to have to explain/work out why they're not touching each other while they still resent each other (early on). What, they only begin to find each other sexy when they accept each other as OK individuals?? That kind of cracks me up.

I don't know where the meme/fear that 'hatesex = deep' came from. I also don't think that hatesex has to equal 'unemotional' or 'all about a power trip'. Hatred is a powerful, visceral thing, and it -can- be actually a -part- of love-- or related to it. So... are there anti-fluff and pro-hatesex rants out there I'm missing? Uh... I mean... not that I -care-, precisely, but I would have a laugh. I do have issues with equating 'fluff' with '(real) love'. I don't think the H/D-in-love!sex snippet I wrote this morning was fluffy, man. Granted, no one has read it... oh, to hell with it. I posted it here; so someone tell me-- is that fluff? If so, I'll eat my hat (and it's an old hat) :D
    Even then, the definitions for what constitutes 'darkfic' or 'angstfic' or 'fluffy' fic seem to change based on people's whims; there's no multi-fandom accepted guide, as far as I know. One person's fluff is another's sap, and is yet another's perfectly believable drama. Ahhh, the eternal beauty of semantics debates.

Though actually, I think this whole entry was misguided (but then, I'm just procrastinating anyway). swtalmnd seems to be writing slashfic to feel good and perpetuate positive romantic feelings in herself-- and she admits that while the characterization involved may be 'unrealistic' in objective terms, she doesn't care because she writes for her own pleasure. In fact, many, many angstfic writers have the same attitude-- they twist and fudge and stretch things to fit some 'angsty' (or non-con, or whatever) framework. And that's fine (for them), but that's not why -I- write fanfic or fic of any kind. I do, of course, write for my pleasure (why else??) but my pleasure consists in writing well, not in the degree to which I can kink myself up. I'm not looking down on people who write just for kink-- that's their thing; this is my thing.

Perhaps we are speaking entirely different languages here; my pleasure in reading and writing is also bone-deep, and I am also an incurable (and often sappy!) romantic-- but I (nearly) always want to have things feel real. That tends to mean they have to come through the 'hard way' way-- i.e., using hard-earned realism (though I'm not claiming I'm -good- at that, just that it's what I -want-).

Basically, I think loving-kind-awkward boysex has its place-- within pairings for which it is 'in character' like friendship-based ones, say. In fact, with Harry/Ron, say, I'd usually find a darkish rapefic to be way offensive and OOC. Every pairing has its own intrinsic dynamic, and if you're not going to care about that, why would you choose one over the other, if not for looks or something?

Well, unless you're writing everything as if it's a Harlequin romance. In which case, more power to you. Um. Good thing, that freedom of choice, isn't it? Yep.

Comments

[swtalmnd]

However, swtalmnd's anti-darkfic (sort of) rant doesn't address the issue of H/D realism, precisely.

Actually, my rant was more against monotony than anything else. Just, y'know, to be clear. I like darkfic when it's not pretentious crap, just like I hate fluff when it's nauseating ooc crap. I just want some freakin' variety in my f-list.

swtalmnd seems to be writing slashfic to feel good and perpetuate positive romantic feelings in herself-- and she admits that while the characterization involved may be 'unrealistic' in objective terms, she doesn't care because she writes for her own pleasure.

While some of my fic is written because I like to watch happy boys shag, and I like to see them be mushy and romantic together sometimes, not all of it is. Nor is all of it fluffy, or kinky, or a single pairing. I write fanfic for a variety of reasons, the main one being my enjoyment of arranging words into bits of fiction that give me a sort of navel-tugging hotness, or a warm happy sweetness, or whatever, when I'm done. I like words a lot, and I enjoy putting them together in new ways, or taking the old ways and making them new again with a twist of metaphor or plot or situational variety.

I don't necessarily go for "guy realism" in my fics, because one man's inner dialog is another man's "wtf is he thinking?". I've known a lot of men in my time, and some of them are sappy and romantic. Some of them aren't, some are 'typical guys' and think like the guys on The Man Show. But the ones I like the most have a core of romance and intelligence that I do try to reflect in my fanfic. I just won't bow to the gay guys that come along and say "but that's not what it's really like to be gay" because what they're really saying is "that's not what my experience with being gay has been like." Which is a pet peeve, and just like Britpickers, one I won't bow to beyond my own personal amusement.

Also, we're writing in a magical world, and one that's seen through an extremely narrow veiwpoint, Harry's. So realism isn't everything, nor is sticking exclusively to canon characterization. I don't believe that all there is to these people is what we see of them through Harry's eyes, and so as long as I'm consistent with what we have seen, I have no problem in giving characters traits in addition to canon. Some people whine at this, but hey, pet peeves, me not bowing. Sometimes these traits include a romantic streak. Sometimes they include shagging your twin brother. Sometimes it includes angst or manipulated consent or slightly-ooc excuses for gratuitous porn.

After all, isn't one point of fanfic to explore the things that canon leaves (and, in the case of porn, will forever leave) unseen or unspoken? Whether dark or light, romantic or hate-filled, non-con or fluff, the real question is, is it any good? I like to think my fics are, but then, it's all a matter of taste, isn't it?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah... monotony is definitely the mindkiller (and I've written plenty of rant-type-things on the things I saw as stagnant in angstfic, actually). Statistically (or, in terms of percentage, anyway), it seems like there's more fluffy crap-- but that might be because more fluff gets written by inexperienced writers or something. And there's nothing painful in quite the same way as a really lame darkfic :>

So yeah, to me, it's definitely all about quality-of-writing, and I just get pinged into defensiveness whenever I feel like generalizations get made by people (who're often being rather defensive, actually). There's no so much of a 'bad' genre or type of fic as a writer who doesn't know how to do justice to a particular situation or concept at that particular point in their lives.

Oh, when I was talking about 'realism', I didn't mean 'gay man' realism. I wasn't bothering to define my terms 'cause I was talking to people who generally read my lj, and I've talked about these things before. Same goes for 'kink', which I use rather generally, to mean 'hot-button of literary satisfaction', so to speak. A lot of people write to get off emotionally if not sexually, and while I see that as valid, I try to get away from being dominated by it.

As far as realism, I meant emotional realism for the particular character in the sum of their parts, not 'as a gay boy' or man or what have you. I don't know what gay boys act like-- I just know that there are -some- general gender/orientation/character-trait guidelines that go into any portrayal of a character, y'know. It's not about pleasing any constituency at all, to me-- just about not 'cheating' whatever you yourself see as that character's 'self' in canon and what that could imply in the future (assuming one connects the dots).

I do -enjoy- writing romantic/intelligent/etc characters and find them easiest myself (since I can directly identify with them), but feel that my chosen characters (Harry, Draco, Ron), don't exactly lend themselves to introspection and romanticism, at least in a direct sense. But I like a challenge. So I've tried to make them less introspective and so on, because I do love them even as I love the act of writing about them itself. But like I said, my own amusement is often a matter of being 'real' or true to the source (though I'm not a canon-whore by any means).

It's not so much a question of following canon (to me) as extrapolating from canon-- so that the characters stay themselves-- like, recognizable. I mean, I only write characters much if I suddenly get a muse for them, anyway, which means stepping beyond canon and Harry's pov in a major way-- it's a leap of imagination. I still try to-- well-- make sense, though, on my own terms if nothing else. Adding to canon is what fanfic -does-; it's just... if you ignore canon in whole swaths that you'd run into problems with believability (with me). Heheh. Far be it from me to say things against gratuitous porn, man (though I try to make that IC, too-- well, I mean, I -try-, at least).

I definitely don't mean to say there are rules to follow in terms of writing (besides 'pay attention to what you're not doing as well as what you're doing', i.e., be self-aware I suppose). My issue was almost entirely focused on saying that I suppose in -H/D-, I think to start with, darker fic would be more believable, and fluff would need a lot of background work that most people don't do. Each situation requires its own context, so any judgement of a type of fic as 'overrated' or 'underrated' just gets me suspicious :>

~reena

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

I think the fandom is writing darker H/D and darker fic in general and I? Think that's a good thing. Because well, I started off writing the silly schmoopy angsty fluff in which there was ManPain and True Wuv That Cannot Be Seperated By Death, and yeah. I think the increasing darkness of the books - and JKR's insistence on not having easy answers or, for that matter, producing characterisation that is easily likeable, and contradicting herself at every stage (because the books text and subtext seem to be giving wildly divergent messages) is forcing us to consider that no pairing is realistic in a sense? Which again to me is a Good Thing, because I tend to think you write someone better when you hate them rather than love them.

And yeah, I've gotten more 'realistic' as time has gone by, which is to say I'm still not very realistic at all - hey, I'm writing HP fanfic here, canon realism not such a big concern - but I don't think you can write happy H/D post-OotP without some major fancy footwork. (or maybe I didn't think you could ever write happy H/D without some fancy footwork, I don't know.)

...I think I had a point.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think it's fascinating, about writing a character better when you hate rather than love them-- 'cause I definitely identify with/love Harry more than Draco, say, and yet I have a much more vocal Draco muse. Not that I hate Draco, but it's closer to hate than to love sometimes. At least, I'm pretty conflicted, so I'm always exploring that and trying to get inside his head. If you're too comfortable with a character, maybe you just get complacent...?

I love the lack of easy answers & contradictions too (like wrinkles to work out), 'cause that's fodder for fanfiction, right there. Which is why all the issues people have with say, OoTP!Ginny's characterization, for instance, actually make me want to write her more. I love it that she's supposedly so badly written-- that makes her a really interesting character more than a lot of other things would, to me anyway. But I'm what they'd call a Special Case.

Yeah, I'm with you about the fancy footwork. Though in a way, that too, just makes things interesting~:))

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

If you're too comfortable with a character, maybe you just get complacent...?

YES! or, why I dislike OTPs, because damn, if you want them to be together, you'll usually make them together (and happy) heedless of whether it makes good sense for them to be so or not.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I know... though, I mean, my own OTP just pushes me to try harder, be -more- convincing... but I'm a perfectionist like that :> If I don't care as much, I don't try as hard.... But also, I'm less satisfied by whatever I do, 'cause I don't have that same level of emotional investment, I guess, too.

I'm kind of split, now. I've been thinking about this, actually-- like... I also believe that true understanding of another person comes through -love- and -wanting- to understand and not having some overriding prejudice (like... hatred) clouding your vision. -Real- love, I mean, where instead of being blind to a character's (or person's) flaws, you are fascinated by them. Where you're willing to look any part of them straight-on, because you just love them that much.

I'm like that with Harry, anyway. I think I've written lots of things I'm -proud- of about characters that mattered a lot less to me, but ultimately it seems not as extremely satisfying when I do feel I've done something -right-, y'know?~:)

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

I think between you and the person I linked to, I'm gonna rant.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...Glad to be of...er... help? *meeps*
Man, that sounded ominous, you have to admit :>
I wasn't actually -disagreeing- with you, you know :>

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know! I can rant positively. sorta. or clarifying-ly, which is so not a word.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, all right, I can dig that. I think I do that too, sometimes. :D In some ways, ranting isn't so much what you say or how you say it but a state of mind, I guess :>

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

Is there some realistic recent H/D someone wants to rec me? Hahah that sounds like a challenge, doesn't it. Maybe it is, at that :D

I call it recent, because it's post-OotP, and yes, I'm pretty sure you must have already read it, because you have Breed on you "Reading-list", don't you? Still, someone asks for a realistic, or IC H/D-fic, and I can never restist the urge to point them out to

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<i>Is there some realistic recent H/D someone wants to rec me? Hahah that sounds like a challenge, doesn't it. Maybe it is, at that :D</i>

I call it recent, because it's post-OotP, and yes, I'm pretty sure you must have already read it, because you have Breed on you "Reading-list", don't you? Still, someone asks for a realistic, or IC H/D-fic, and I can never restist the urge to point them out to <a href="http://bloom.velveteen.net/four.html"Four Letter Words"</a>. Not only is this the most realistic H/D-fic I've read, but I think it's one of the most realistic "ship-fics" I've seen in this fandom (and I've read many, for many different ships). I find it realistic, because first of all, I think both Harry and Draco, and in the extent that they appear, all other characters as well, remain completely IC throughout the story. Which, in itself means that what happens between Harry and Draco comes off as completely realistic, too. And the story, IMO, is not the least bit contrived, everything that happens seem like things that could very well happen. (Boys reading and sharing porn, and boys wanking together, both seem like things that would <i>totally</i> happen in a boarding school, after all, and given all the circumstances, it seems natural for both Harry and Draco to get the roles they do.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, um, naturally I've read that fic~:) But I'm glad you took up the challenge. Ahhhhhh I'm so proud 'cause a discussion of how I think boys would totally wank together inspired it in the first place :))
I'm a big fan of boy-wanking, as most people who read this lj for awhile probably know :D :D :D
So yeah. *sigh* There's always Miss Breed :>

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

*comments on the fluffy pr0n* It's porny, but not very fluffy. Fluffy is all
"I love you"s and "Oh baby Oh baby Oh baby" and people watching other people sleep. *gags*

Um, hmm, dunno what to say. Again, I fairly much agree with you, though I may be a little weird when it comes to this and my love of futurefics. When the boys are all grown up and such the dynamic tends to change in ficdom, and there's not so much hatesex as much as angsty "just sex"-sex. But futurefics are a law unto themselves and as such probably don't count (though I do agree with malafede's post about OOCness).

But when it comes to Hogwarts era fics, hatesex or angstsex is what I like the most, because I see that as IC and therefore the dynamic of the two. A lot of the fluffy stuff seems to use angst as its base, and then builds to a fluffy character change from that. Like the 1001 (and then some) trainwreck H/D fics in which Draco loses one/both parents. *shudders* Okay so I confess, I do occasionally get a fluff kink and so go search some out, but it's rare, so doesn't count... >.> <.< Or something. I blame my love of ferret!Draco for it. So. Damn. Cute.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, I probably lied when I said that was the fluffiest ever. That was just the fluffiest in the past few months. I mean, I write stuff like this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/104336.html) (not -that- rarely), so I really can't talk, AHAHAHAH. um. I love ferret!Draco with a brilliant burning love<3333333 Mmmm, ferret!sex :9 Um. I once wrote fluffy future-fic!sex (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/88842.html) but I really don't... I mean, it's not my thing. At all. Meh. I like my fluff-- and angst-- and everything in between-- in Hogwarts corridors, on the Quidditch pitch or possibly in the Potions classroom. I am Le Classique, man :>

I totally read fluff. I just get all 'grrrrr' when either angst or fluff is singled out as 'better' :/ :/

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. Heh, I shall just take this moment to tell you how much I love your sleepy-sunday-sex fic. THHIISSS MUCH *spreads arms as far as they will go*. Especially the ending, "just like nature intended." It's like poetry, but with more precious bodily fluids.

I am a complete sucker for the Qudditch lockeroom, probably because it embodies all the things I love about H/D. Slamming against lockers, rough sex on cold tiles leading to interesting bruises/wounds, shower wanking, a competitive environment, broomstick metaphors, and yadda yadda yadda. It's all just there so perfectly, it doesn't matter how bad the fic is, I will have to read it til the end.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Is it really an H/D fic worthy of the name if there is zero slamming, I ask you?? Mmmmm, slamming. In fact, is it an H/D fic if there is zero wall-sex and/or use of the term 'Scarhead' and possibly, as a boy, 'Ferret'. Mmmm, ferrets >:D