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May. 27th, 2004 05:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaIf you'd asked maybe a year ago, I'd have said my favorite H/D fic was `Brief Interval before the Resumption of Play' by Audrey. It is lyrical, focused, and... really hot. It also broke my heart into a million tiny pieces by the end when I first read it; and besides, it wasn't a WIP.
H/D was always about the raw, unleashed passion for me. I suppose I really don't care about the "plot" or even the characterization, as long as the intensity is there, and the angst (etc) is well-written. And most people... don't deliver. To me, the pairing doesn't quite work if it's not... somewhat insane, all-consuming, ragged and always on the verge of collapse. I don't care what clever rationalization the fic comes up with for -why- Draco is now "worthy" of Harry (or vice versa!) It turns me off, if anything. Everyone wants to -explain- somehow, and that's just so fruitless. You can never explain these insane sorts of things. You can't show how Draco's "better" now, thus Harry would want him. Doesn't work that way.
I think I read mostly for emotion. Nothing feels -real- to me unless the emotional index is high, and the sense of emotional urgency is there. I think I'm like some sort of emotional high junkie or something, but with H/D it doesn't -work- any other way. Draco doesn't -work- for me if he's not burning alive inside, if it's not a humorfic.
I'm trying to read `A Thousand Beautiful Things', and honestly... eh. I could take it or leave it, and I haven't even finished the first chapter. Everyone goes on about the nice mature style & plottiness of the recent finished H/D novels, but who cares about mature style? I can always read published authors if I wanted to. I read fanfic because of my emotional investment, I guess, and it doesn't get fulfilled by reasonable characterizations and plausible conclusions.
Audrey's fic is great 'cause it celebrates the implausible. It's like a lovepoem, the whole way through, except... not. I want that burning bittersweet ephemeral thing. That kick. That sense of hopeless yearning. What's a love story if it doesn't rip you open?
So what should I read? I haven't read `Tissue of Silver' or `Transfigurations' or `Invisible to See'. I'm painfully tired of seeing Draco described as "noble" or having it be Post-Hogwarts so we don't have to deal with messy nastiness or underage wizards or whatever. I want messy nastiness, dammit. Wah.
H/D was always about the raw, unleashed passion for me. I suppose I really don't care about the "plot" or even the characterization, as long as the intensity is there, and the angst (etc) is well-written. And most people... don't deliver. To me, the pairing doesn't quite work if it's not... somewhat insane, all-consuming, ragged and always on the verge of collapse. I don't care what clever rationalization the fic comes up with for -why- Draco is now "worthy" of Harry (or vice versa!) It turns me off, if anything. Everyone wants to -explain- somehow, and that's just so fruitless. You can never explain these insane sorts of things. You can't show how Draco's "better" now, thus Harry would want him. Doesn't work that way.
I think I read mostly for emotion. Nothing feels -real- to me unless the emotional index is high, and the sense of emotional urgency is there. I think I'm like some sort of emotional high junkie or something, but with H/D it doesn't -work- any other way. Draco doesn't -work- for me if he's not burning alive inside, if it's not a humorfic.
I'm trying to read `A Thousand Beautiful Things', and honestly... eh. I could take it or leave it, and I haven't even finished the first chapter. Everyone goes on about the nice mature style & plottiness of the recent finished H/D novels, but who cares about mature style? I can always read published authors if I wanted to. I read fanfic because of my emotional investment, I guess, and it doesn't get fulfilled by reasonable characterizations and plausible conclusions.
Audrey's fic is great 'cause it celebrates the implausible. It's like a lovepoem, the whole way through, except... not. I want that burning bittersweet ephemeral thing. That kick. That sense of hopeless yearning. What's a love story if it doesn't rip you open?
So what should I read? I haven't read `Tissue of Silver' or `Transfigurations' or `Invisible to See'. I'm painfully tired of seeing Draco described as "noble" or having it be Post-Hogwarts so we don't have to deal with messy nastiness or underage wizards or whatever. I want messy nastiness, dammit. Wah.
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Date: 2004-05-27 02:46 pm (UTC)I guess, like they say, I have different buttons that I want to be pushed. But I can see why other people would like these fics.
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Date: 2004-05-27 02:50 pm (UTC)Wah.
I do want to have -something- to read :/
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Date: 2004-05-27 03:10 pm (UTC)I haven't read A Thousand Beautiful Things - more scrolled it down. As I've said, certain things push me right off a fic. It really depends whether you share my kinks or not! Draco seemed very adult to me. It's well-written, that's for sure.
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Date: 2004-05-27 03:14 pm (UTC)Also, we do share Draco kinks as far as MSASness. I was thinking, reading the beginning of `A Thousand Beautiful Things'- OMG, MSAS ALERT!!1 ahahah
It's also very blatant telling-not-showing, which turns me right off. I hate being preached to. *POUTS*
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Date: 2004-05-27 03:19 pm (UTC)The MSAS was very strong with Draco.
*shutting up now*
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Date: 2004-05-28 07:38 am (UTC)If you'll read my rec and Isiscolo's (specifically ours because we were her beta's) you'll noticed we emphasized plot and characterization. I'm really sorry you didn't make it through the first chapter because I think it's a really good story, drawing on a lot of other classic really good stories--it remained as engrossing a read for me all three times that I read it during the beta process.
I would never say that Viki's style is fully mature or that anybody's style is fully mature, but that wouldn't keep me from reading a good story. I liked the story behind her first fic The Waters of March, I thought it was inventive even though I thought it was a flawed fic.
I have to say, you throw me off in your post when you first say you want things to be real, then turn around and praise Audrey for her 'implausibility.' This is all implausible; the tones of certain fics tend to be more surreal than others, A Brief Interval definitely among their number; but everything we read here is dwelling on fantasy to some extent. If you found ATBT to be indulgent, what makes it more so for what it was trying to achieve than, say, "Still Life" by Amalin or anything by Silvia or Maya?
I have no idea what MSASness, but I think that if you're concerned about the aspects of the fic telling-not-showing (inasmuch as you only got past chapter one), those are concerns to consider addressing directly to the author. She takes criticism well.
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Date: 2004-05-28 07:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 01:54 pm (UTC)MSAS = Mature Self-Aware Sensitive Draco; basically fanon!Draco, but I dislike "fanon" since it's such a blanket sweeping term, really. You yourself didn't dispute that he's fanon, right? Well, as I've said, that sort of trips me up a lot more than it used to. In fact, it's -painful- for me to read a Draco that is "slightly irritated" by Potter (though I can't tell if it deals with OoTP yet or not, that doesn't even matter-- I don't think Draco was "slightly irritated" even in first year). I mean, not to mention the difficulty I have seeing the amount of reasonableness and thoughtfulness (apparently, Draco likes to think things through), that he's displayed in this first chapter. I mean, I dunno, does this characterization change significantly? That's why I asked you :>
It was unclear what issue I had with the fic from this post 'cause I consciously -didn't- talk about the fic-- 'cause I haven't read all of it. So... yes, my issue was simply Draco. No plot or style or anything is as important to me as a main (pov) character I can empathize with or believe in. Same thing happened to me reading OoTP, for example. I -appreciated- all the plotty non-Harry stuff, but it was basically take-it-or-leave-it. I'm there for Harry (because he's the pov character), and that's what makes or breaks the books for me. So it's a question of what I'm reading for.
I suppose I did generalize and say I read for "emotion", but it's my impression Draco's emotional make-up that bothered me. Or rather, the fact that he seemed more rationally than emotionally based (at that turning point when he was 16 or whatever, which is such a central time to get right).
When I say "realism", I mean emotional realism. The level of actual plot realism doesn't matter, and I do like fantasy best. With Maya and Silvia, my judgements are different because they write humorfic and play up the camp & the absurd-- UL isn't really full-on drama, and neither is most of the stuff Silvia wrote. Even so, I find UL to retain that central core of passionate!Draco (or passionate!Harry, since he's the all-important pov character mostly) that I latch on to.
I didn't mean "fully mature", I just meant what
I want things to be emotionally real, and what I like about Audrey is that she doesn't try to over-explain the attraction, the very nature of their emotions. To me, things are more "real" if they're more... insane & unexplainable, especially when it comes to H/D. GeovIki kept on explaining Draco's thought-processes, showing how B follows A and C follows B, and so on, thus giving me the mental opportunity to sit there and argue with her conclusions. Audrey never posited any theories about the nature of Harry or Draco's psyches that I remember, so I just swallowed things whole and depended on their chemistry & emotions to guide my responses.
So it wasn't that it was indulgent, really, just that it was overly rational & clean for Draco (not to mention reasonably-evil!Lucius) :>
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Date: 2004-05-28 02:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 02:49 pm (UTC)All this is justified by it being a future-fic, which I guess makes sense, but this is why I like Hogwarts-era fics.
Invisible to See -- you might like. Hogwarts-era. Features out-of-the-closet!Draco, though. Mostly UST.
Tissue of Silver -- another post-Hogwarts fic. It features a very self-contained Draco and I think Harry has a big crush on him (it's been a while since I read it, so I may be wrong about the last bit). It's more of a detective story than a romance, if I remember correctly. Mostly UST.
The hookups in the last two don't happen until near the end, but the sex is hotter in Invisible to See.
Hmmm ... none of these are my favorites (unfortunately), but that is probably the one you would enjoy most. I will be curious to see what you think, anyway.
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Date: 2004-05-27 02:54 pm (UTC)I am assuming you are looking for
longer fics
plotty but messy-relationship-focused (is UST for much of the fic ok?)
Hogwarts-era
?
Have you read Corvette Claire? I think I was probably the last person in fandom to discover Thicker than Blood. I really liked that story (and the WIP sequel even better).
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Date: 2004-05-27 03:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 03:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 03:05 pm (UTC)Yes. I don't mind UST. I don't even mind if they never get together, if the emotions run high.
I feel vaguely guilty for not having read the hot-to-trot H/D novels everyone keeps linking to, heheh. Although it feels slightly like watching reality shows just because everyone else does ^^;
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Date: 2004-05-28 07:42 am (UTC)I have a very bitter personal grudge against Seekers Play Rough because the author plagiarized entire sections, phrase for phrase, from chapters 5, 7, and 9 of Love Under Will around chapters 5 or 6 or so of her own story. She apologized but never changed the story when I asked her to. I haven't read it since. But I'm twistedly delighted that everyone seems to love the story so much. >:D
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Date: 2004-05-28 10:15 am (UTC)Because I am not really remembering the writing style right now (it was a couple of months ago and, well, I read a LOT), but I remember thinking Adamant and Starlight was well-done.
is the writing purple? because a lot of fics are sort of overwritten in fandom. i mean, most people are writing genre fiction, not literary fiction here.
that pensieve scene at stonehenge (btw, i can never say "stoneHenge," but only "stone'enge," as in Spinal Tap") where the stars seems so enormous and low and pulsing because that's how Draco perceived them ... that was a really powerful and scary image that stuck with me (obviously).
i need to go to armchair slash and check out the discussion.
am so disgusted about seekers play rough ripping you off that i don't really know what to say. why haven't people made a bigger deal out of this?
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Date: 2004-05-28 10:32 am (UTC)She let me into some insight about the way she was writing the chapters at the time, though, that completely ruined whatever respect I had for her writing process anyway. I haven't continued to read the story--I had been following it up til I recognized all the plagiarized parts.
Corvette Claire is writing in what I would call the genre style, and I think it gets a bit on the purple side at times, particularly in the romance scenes which is the biggest problem I have with the fic stylistically--but on the whole it's nowhere near as involved or elaborate a style as, say, IP. And I really like her imagery and her characterizations.
But, er, don't go there now because I haven't actually introduced the authors yet, haha. We're having a WIP month so I am selfishly sticking Corvette Claire in with a group that includes other writers of various sorts and styles and ability levels--including Dahlia, which I'm excited about. :) But, um, I still have to write the introduction. Am going to make it for the month of June, so we'll have plenty of time to squee.
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Date: 2004-05-29 01:53 am (UTC)Oh,I think I chose the wrong expression. It's like... reading something where you know you should notice minor... jarring detaiils? But not noticing them because you are being sucked right in. I don't know, I always feel guilty when I swoon at descriptions of Draco as an "archangel"! But I love them! :( I'm just too self-conscious, I think.
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Date: 2004-05-29 03:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 04:43 pm (UTC)*opens mouth*
*closes mouth again*
*walks away confused.*
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Date: 2004-05-28 07:44 am (UTC)Why? Have you not read Transfigurations? That's exactly what happens in it.
>:D<
I love Resonant's writing generally, and stylistically and plotwise, it's hard to find a flaw in Transfigurations, but I honestly remain dumbfounded at the liberties she took with characterization, and the way people seem to just adore a story that seems so uncanonical to me. Gah. Don't get me started.
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Date: 2004-05-28 01:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-28 10:07 am (UTC)This is why some days I wonder why I bother writing fanfic because I just feel so out of step with what people like. Especially because in addition to the characterization issues I have with the story, I have what I guess could be called moral/philosophical ones as well, since every person who has died before the story begins is still present in the story as a ghost or a statue and thus still interacts with the characters, gives them advice, etc. So there is no attempt to come to grips with actual loss at all.
I find that really disturbing. I don't think that fits with JKR's universe, and ... well ... it certainly doesn't fit with mine. I find that as freakish and upsetting as other people find chan, actually. (I had a similar reaction to Tiranog's "A Nick In Time," and that author is someone who constantly preaches to other people about morality and "senseless dark torture wallow fests," so there you go.)
Also, the magic works as -- as I think idlerat put it -- "computerfic." But I realize this is the sort of elaboration that a lot of folks actually enjoy in fanfic ... whereas Geoviki's version seemed more in line with canon to me.
I actually had a different set of issues with Geoviki's fic, but I think a lot of them came down to likes/dislikes. I mean, it's easy for me to make fun of a story that has Draco working as a male model. But then I realized that as somebody whose biggest kink is prostitute!Draco, I really wasn't one to talk. :D
diving off topic.
Date: 2004-05-28 10:47 am (UTC)You've hit the nail on the head for me here, S, which is that I think different fics call for acceptance on different terms. If I think a fic is worthy of respect because it's written well and has an imaginative plot and well-thought-out characterization, then I can accept it on its own terms, whether that fic is Viki's alternate-view of male model Draco, or whether it's the surreality of a fic like A Brief Interval or Rach's Contrition.
For me Transfiguration didn't work because it set up terms I couldn't accept: it worked as a fic stylistically, and plot-wise it was fine; but it was asking me to accept it as a post-canon depiction of canon characters; and I just couldn't do that. It was too much of a stretch.
Also, for the same reasons that I can't accept the terms of Frances' Resolution as it has developed, I don't feel that I can criticize Frances' story as it has developed; because I feel like she's simply and unapologetically writing a different story than the one I want to read. I could view it as a certain kind of fic that is very very flawed--or as a certain other kind of fic that is quite good. I think that Resolution is the latter kind of fic, but I refuse to accept the terms of that particular kind of fic; so obviously I'm not about to criticize something whose terms I haven't accepted.
A fic like Transfigurations, however, asks more of me in many respects than a fic like Resolution does; and when I've done the work on my end as a reader and met the author halfway, but it still can't convince me that its universe is real, then I view it as a flawed fic.
It seems to me that Reena has chosen not to accept the terms of Viki's fic as you did and as I did as we were reading it. That's fine; but I honestly don't think that if she only got through a chapter of it that she has gained the position or perspective to critique it, or to decide what kind of fic it is. Failure to accept a fic on its terms means you have exerted a very subjective preliminary judgment on the fic as a whole without bothering to delve into it fully to see how much merit your judgments have. And I know that whenever I, personally, do that, I stand in no position to critique the author of the fic or the fic itself. And I don't try.
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Date: 2004-05-28 01:28 pm (UTC)I think it's that rentboy!Draco is more of a characterization thing (like, he's a desperate, slutty bottom-boy or whatever), whereas all the modeling implies is that he's vain (but not necessarily desperate or bottomy). So it's like, not as convincing. Anything that involves desperate-bottom!Draco is well... convincing :D
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Date: 2004-05-29 01:58 am (UTC)Nothing laughable there, man. You are very correct.
*is slave of own kinks*
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Date: 2004-05-28 01:39 pm (UTC)So it's not that it's SO BAD this is out there, but that's strange having it be so famous and considered, like, standard.
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Date: 2004-05-29 02:00 am (UTC)Ahahah, I think I'm still high from yesterday. Yes, I know, TMI.
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Date: 2004-05-29 01:57 am (UTC)Right there with you! Actually, rentboy Draco is very canonical! >:O Nothing to apologize for.
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Date: 2004-05-27 02:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 02:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 03:02 pm (UTC)Now, `Brief Interval' seems... vaguely unfinished and a bit... unfocused, actually. Like, it -almost- gets where it's going, but not quite. I think I got that feeling then, too, but I was much more vulnerable to ze Epic Angest & Pane :D
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Date: 2004-05-27 04:04 pm (UTC)The fic was written and posted as a WIP, and I don't think it was planned start to finish. It was written in Audrey's first burst of love for H/D, out of the sheer enjoyment of fanfic (which we'd all just discovered) and H/D and of writing again (since Audrey is one of the few trained writers amongst us). The entire thing was written and posted very quickly ... as I think she wrote in one of her author's notes, she was getting up hours before work just because she was so excited to get those words on the page. And she never went back and reworked it -- she just moved on to Speak, Desire.
Which similarly was written simply for the pleasure of it, and when Audrey lost that pleasure (for RL reasons), she never returned to the fic.
So what I like about it are the details (like Audrey's descriptions of Quidditch, hahaha *<3s baseball slash*), and her voice, and the characterizations, and of course the incredible writing. I don't look to it to follow a strong narrative thread or to be well-paced on a macro-level (the individual scenes are well-paced, though), because I don't think that was something she was even really thinking about all that much -- she was just taking pleasure in the writing and the words, and well the H/D ANGEST & PANE, which we all are a sucker for.
I try to read fics in context. (Note: I try. I didn't say I always succeed. Or even very often.) Even IP, which I have a low opinion of because of the characterizations and the style ... at that point, there was a lot of purple prose in fandom, and it's not fair to read fics written at that time the same way we do now, because writers weren't holding each other to the same standards.
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Date: 2004-05-27 04:42 pm (UTC)I think I've become a bit too jaded in the stuff I look for. Like, I -say- I just want the feeling, but... I've spent so long meta-analyzing everything, heh. I can still enjoy most things I enjoyed before 'cause I do remember the context pretty clearly-- that's why I still enjoy remembering IP, 'cause I always have the memory of staying up all night for the first time, completely and utterly spell-bound. It was my first H/D Angest & Pane fic (Ivy's & Erin's were like, the only fics I'd read before IP). I remember my t00by woe. I remeber being on the edge of my seat, realizing how much I -need- them to be together. Why oh why art thou so cruel, Draco?!?!
Hee.
I like mentioning IP 'cause like... no one mentions it anymore, ahahah. I have this perverse need to beat a dead horse, or something >:D
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Date: 2004-05-27 05:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-05-27 06:18 pm (UTC)Intense emotions are the basic reason I read I fic. I want bigger then life love and hate and desire and so on, though it really doesn't need to be presented in a bigger than life way. I appreciate moderation and understatement in writing, I like style, I like a healthy dose of dry wit and irony and characters being aware and self-depracating about their predicament, I love adventures, or scary and creepy atmosphere and of course, good smut.
But at the same time, underneath it all, and not necessarily obvious at first glance, I want emotional purity and intensity. Everything has to be a matter of life or death. That's why I got so attracted to HP in the first place, it's all a matter of life or death when you're fifteen years old. I need to care for the characters, and what makes you care more than the revelation of their vulnerability? I'm reading X-files slash these days for the first time, and I having such a great time with all that unleashing of suppresed aggresions and desires.
If I'd have a bullterpoof kink it would probably be: And the villain is bleeding love all over the good boy's floor.
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Date: 2004-05-27 06:52 pm (UTC)Yeah, big feelings...! Though I think that's considered embarrassing by most fic reviewers 'cause it lends itself to purple prose and teenage boys crying and cutting themselves. I suppose that's where the actual writing skill steps in :D
I think that's always been what I really liked about your work, The Untold Want included. There's all this atmosphere & a sort of veiling effect by the style and the darkness, but at the center there's this raw openness Draco has that always drew me in like a moth to a flame. There's something voyeuristic about reading, especially romance-type things, and the biggest payoff, yes, is when they're falling apart, losing control, all pretty thinly disguised as something else. Without that, it's just sort of a story about some boy (usually badly-characterized) and his hormones (and sometimes his daddy issues). heh.
I would totally go for Mulder/Krycek if I wasn't a M/S shipper and didn't remember distinctly disliking Krycek when I watched the show. I think I still resent him for that initial way he was introduced as Mulder's partner. I was like, YOU FIENDS!!1 BRING BACK SCULLY!! heh~:)
I meant bulletproof!!!!
Date: 2004-05-28 02:05 pm (UTC)Re: I meant bulletproof!!!!
Date: 2004-05-28 02:09 pm (UTC)(This could be because the amount of typos I make has gone radically up. As is the time I actually go to bed ^^;)
My two pence
Date: 2004-05-28 12:23 pm (UTC)