~~ oh Draco...

[reenka]

I swear to god, I just got a review (heh) for `What Everyone Wants to Know' (and I actually am not sure which fic that is, ahahah) in Spanish. Yep. No, I don't know Spanish (well, beyond like, 5 words), but I think I've got the gist of it. That said... what does "que te pasa?.no pongas tantas frases vulgares. J.K.rowling no escribe asi." mean, exactly?? I've a feeling it's not positive ("vulgares" and "no escribe" doesn't sound good) but.... ^^;;

My reaction to seeing the latest JKR interview was largely very positive. In fact, now I'm all excited (again) about book 6, and I can't wait. I can't even believe it, 'cause I'm not necessarily a fan of the books (heh) but... I love the idea of more information. I've grown to love the books 'cause they're so intricately interconnected and subtle in their way, and every time I see an interview, the idea that JKR knows exactly what she's doing gets reinforced. I mean, she definitely has a vision, a Plan, which is a fun thing to watch-- especially if you look at it as a puzzle. It's easy to relax, to trust that she really does know everything there is to know and everything is happening as it should-- as it -has- to. She's like Dumbledore, in a way :>

Also, it helps that aside from Draco, I think my desires for the characters coincide with authorial intent, pretty much, and all the little mysteries and hints are things she's aware of, generally. Like the mirror, like what Hermione and Krum did that summer, like why did Sirius -have- to die, like why did both Harry and Voldemort survive the first time, what's the story with Snape, etc. Even Draco has things planned for him, apparently, which is exciting! Even if the plan is "drag through the mud". At least he'll be visible! (Yep. Expectations? Not high.)

That said, I really feel like I have to dissociate to some extent, when it comes to Draco. It's like... no one is going to get away unscathed, and you can bet everyone's life will suck until the end, but with Draco... it's more of a question of characterization rather than particular unhappy events I'm worried about. I feel like JKR is an event-driven author, in that she's very focused on plot and the characterization is incidental. Mostly, I just have to remember that "my" Draco, the Draco I get in my head through thinking about him and reading about him, is rather subtextual in actuality. What he does often depends on what he -has- to do for one reason or another. That is to say... he's barely -there-, in the books. He's a pretty damn minor character to whom I personally have a disproportionate amount of attachment.... But that doesn't mean I won't freak out if something awful happens to him, if that meant I couldn't write about him outside an AU. *sigh*


I read Sister Magpie's Draco post from a bit ago, too, and realized that maybe I've been too harsh on the ice-prince!Draco characterization. It's true that he doesn't express the full range of all the emotions he must feel, only anger... and though most people don't show them all, generally there's more. I think Draco being someone who's probably not seen a great deal of positive parental attention has something to do with it, as well as him being (an aggressive) boy. The problem isn't seeing him as repressed or arrogant-- it's more the way that somehow seems to make him smooth in fanon. Repression isn't smooth, is it? Most geeks are emotionally repressed, aren't they? Ha. Yeah, Draco's a geek. :D Okay, in my dreams. Not.

I've said before that his "mask" is really another facet of him... and it occurs to me that it's a lot like he's being dissociative. Like... whether it's pride or if he hides them as a defense mechanism... it seems like he's one of those people who are both introverted and extraverted. So maybe the emotions he can't deal with just get shunted to the side-- kept separate. He's being rather passive-aggressive, emotionally-- lashing out, but not directly in response, rather taunting sometimes unrelated people usually about unrelated things. Possibly, his father was originally the figure he just -couldn't fight- but didn't even -want- to on some level-- just wanted attention from-- that set this pattern.

I definitely agree that Draco feels pain the most deeply of all the characters in HP, but I think a lot of that is because he's such a child, really. I don't know if he's masochistic, emotionally-- I think a part of it is that he just can't decide whether he merely wants to fight and hurt back or whether he's so desperate that he'll settle for anything. He just wants, in a very egoistic, simple way. He wants what everyone wants, really, but he's constantly shooting himself in the foot. The purity of this neediness is probably what makes him so vulnerable, so susceptible to pain. He's just rather single-minded, really, the way a young child would be. He won't compromise. He won't quit. If he doesn't get what he wants, he'll just make sure it's undesirable somehow. I have a feeling that any lasting consequences either get forgotten or ignored in the present moment, probably.

I was thinking that Harry is a lot more direct. When encountering trauma or abuse, Harry appears to fight back; he doesn't accept it. He seems to have a very secure ego that he doesn't really question until he hits adolescence. Harry sublimates things too, of course, but he doesn't appear to -need- people like Draco does (or Ron, actually), which gives him quite the advantage. To Harry, "they're" wrong and he's right, and he takes whatever opportunity's there to get back at any tormentor. What I mean is, he's as vindictive as Draco is, but he does it from an emotionally dissociated position. He doesn't really -feel- things besides (righteous) anger for his enemies or tormentors, it seems (thinking of the Dursleys-- his only family for ages-- and even Voldemort). Draco just takes it much more personally, I think; as an attack on his very identity, maybe. Harry's identity is kind of unassuming. He doesn't need to prove himself, I think, to people he doesn't care for to start with.

Hermione has a lot of social issues too, but she seems to have a habit of reinforcing her ego by being better, smarter, untouchable; a perfectionist, basically. Neville and Luna just accept their lot in life, never having much ambition to drive them to fight. Snape, on the other hand, has built a shell around his pain, and his ambitions have been rather ruthlessly channeled into what he can realistically have (not to say he's not bitter, of course). He's much more rational than Draco is about that, I think. He may -want- the same things, but he's much more introspective, and he doesn't necessarily see a way out. Draco doesn't really -think- like that, it appears.

It's really Draco's ambition that probably chafes the most. His vision of what he -should- be (whether natural or instilled by his parents) is so dissonant with who he -is- and what his reality is that it can't help but torment him. Harry, on the other hand, would be only too happy to cut back on the expectations placed on him. Mostly because they haven't been placed by anyone that matters to him, so he never internalized them-- Sirius' and Dumbledore's expectations are rather different, but note how accepting both of them have been. That's probably partly why Dumbledore's manipulation hit him like it did. I know Harry has ambitions, but I don't think they're of a social nature. This is probably the difference in Harry and Draco's styles of leadership-- one is natural and one is a pretty conscious effort. I think Harry wants to interact with people on an individual level, for them to love and want him, to give him whatever parts of his personal history he's been missing.

...And I really need to stop and post this before I write a novel. Eep.

Comments

[layha.livejournal.com]

All v. interesting thoughts, Reena. Thoughts with which I agree!
w00t.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

That said... what does "que te pasa?.no pongas tantas frases vulgares. J.K.rowling no escribe asi." mean, exactly??

Basically it means "what's going into you? Don't use sentences that vulgar. JKR doesn't write like that."

Interesting post. I think Draco is an incredibly social kid (and Harry really isn't, he's perfectly content not expading his horizons beyond his small social circle of close friends), but he lacks social skills. For instnace, many times when he goes out to pester the trio, seem like he, in some way, is searching contact with them. It begins with him being rejected by Harry. He's curious enough to spy on them (without Crabbe and Goyle!) the first year. That whole Norbert business, the way he sneaks outside Hagrid's window, the way he goes after Ron later, pretending to borrow his book so that he can gloat about how he knows everything and is going to tell... it just reminds me very much of an obnoxious kid in school who the other kids don't want to play with, because he doesn't have any good people skills, and he keeps following them nevertheless, becoming nasty, because they exclude him. I guess that's why I don't find your "Draco's a geek" to be that far-fetched. Yes, he's obtained a certain status within his house, enough for him to be able to "hold court" the fifth year, but he seems to have had to struggle for that position.

Sister Magpie also wrote an excellent post recently about how the deepest desire within Snape was to get respect, not love, which explains why he generally seems more rational than Draco. Draco, on the other hand, thinks he wants respect most of all, but it's really love, that he wants. He'd never consiously know that of course, and it's a very deeply hidden desire. This explains why he's so hurt when he's rejected, that he still holds a grudge five years after. I think Harry's deepest desire would be to have a sense of belonging. It sounds a lot like love, but it's not exactly the same thing. He is loved, after all, by the Weasleys, his friends and the grown-ups he associates with (Sirius, the Order, most teachers at Hogwarts), but he has a feeling of outside-ship nontheless, like he might be loved, but he's different from everyobody else and therefore doesn't really belong. So, I think that explains why Harry doesn't care about people who don't like or don't approve of him; he has enough people who do that, and it's them he wants to belong with.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

She's like Dumbledore, in a way

Yup. Of course, to me, being like Dumbledore is Not A Good Thing.:-)

I think you've really hit on a huge source of Harry's strength as well as his pain in that he's an outsider. He's *always* been defined that way. He lived in a house with a family where he was an intruder. But what he did have was the fantasy (which in his case was a true fantasy) of parents who loved him. It's that whole fairy tale set-up. The evil stepmother neatly splits the real mother in two, so the kid can continue to adore the mother of infancy who just took care of her needs, but be angry and jealous of the woman married to her father who couldn't possibly be her real mother because she's wicked and disciplines her. As we've seen in the books, Harry may be an orphan but his parents are practically the most present of any in canon--completely focused on him from beyond. Even in OotP Harry deals with the idea of rejecting his father (for disappointing him by being a jerk) rather than his father being uninterested in him.

Draco is completely the opposite. I think Lucius shows contempt to Draco that is related to the Dursleys' contempt of Harry--and by focusing on Draco's letting down his bloodline he almost insinuates he's an outsider in his family as well. But for Draco (and Ron) there's no split between the father and mother he hates and those he loves. He's not an outsider at all--he's completely bound to his clan just as Ron is. There's no hope that he could be something independently--no ugly duckling who just needs to find the swans. So while Harry is the outsider, a role he manages to take some strength from by becoming independent and choosing those people he wants to please and those he doesn't, Draco's more just like the idiot son, I think. For the most part, after all, Harry has chosen wisely the people he wants to please--he chooses based on the people who show him affection or do something for him first.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's interesting making the point about Draco's focus being childlike because I think it's both true and not true. It's true because he does seem SO immature to me, still stuck in a very early stage of development, trying to get the basic self-confidence he needs to be sure of his parents and then venture out in the world without them. So as you say rejection becomes a threat to his identity. In his world it seems like when he's acknowledged he is good and when he's dismissed or criticized he is bad. But otoh what's not childlike is the way he doesn't give up. I mean, children in general forget pain more easily than adults do. It's adults that hold grudges. So I feel Draco's kind of both...like, look at his relationship with Lucius. When Lucius is showing him contempt in B&B he's angry and sulky, but then he goes right back to thinking his dad's the best. I can see that being a pattern early on. When Dad was nice he was the best but when Dad (or Mummy) was mean Draco, like most small kids, probably forgave him fairly quickly. Draco still seems stuck in that mode with his parents--Lucius is easily as insulting as Harry in the B&B scene and Draco doesn't seem to hold a grudge about it (I think he just transfers that grudge to Harry). So on one hand he's acting like the kid and always giving his parents another chance, otoh he's an adult who resents the way that this is the world works...or something.

This also makes me think of that fanon convention that always has Draco insulting everybody in Slytherin with them walking on eggshells around him, yet we've not seen this in canon. (He's jocularly bullying to C&G as underlings, but there's no hint he calls Pansy names, for instance.) What's ironic is that this fanon Draco is actually more related to Canon Harry, especially in OotP. Harry is prickly, always ready to cut someone off if they say the wrong thing--Ron and Hermione *do* have to walk on eggshells at times. With Harry I think it's part of him overidentifying as the outsider. He's paranoid of people being against him so he's always letting them know if they have a problem with him they had better piss off. Harry's very all-or-nothing in OotP. Draco, by contrast, seems always shown as the one working hard for people to not abandon him, imo. This is not to say he's not demanding as well--presumably hating Harry Potter is as much a pre-requisite for being Draco's friend as hating Voldemort (and Draco) is for being Harry's. But I still think Harry's based more on the, "I really don't need anyone!" message while Draco's is more, "Fine. See if I care. I don't need you. Bastard." Both of which, ironically, seem to really be about both boys needing or wanting people and being unhappy about that need.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

you know what? you are right. that is because we are both extremely brilliant ;))

although i'm starting to think that thinking about draco & h/d is just kinda depressing these days ^^;

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee. I'd like to see the H/D fic written how JKR would write it, heheheh. Yep. Ah well. At least there was no porn, that might've given them an aneurysm or something.

Hmmm. Draco lacking social skills isn't really something I've considered before. Well, the thing is, Harry doesn't like Draco because of the things he says as much as the way he says them (arrogant, snotty, whatever). They just kind of rub each other the wrong way before it was ever an issue of House rivalry or either of them having done something to each other. I just think... we don't really know very well how Draco acts in "normal" social situations, 'cause I think Harry had always put a spike in that wheel, so to speak. I think Harry would reject someone of his type and/or with his affiliations no matter how smooth they were, and he seems to accept real dorks (Neville, Luna, possibly Hermione in a way) if they seem "all right" on some sort of... instinctive level. I mean, I don't think it's a social issue for -Harry-, the rejecting thing. I think he was like, "okay, what an asshole". And Draco doesn't take -that- too well, which is I think the one situation that makes him most asshole-like. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something.

Though I do see how he's a geek, I just don't know if that really matters in the case of his unfortunate pursuits of the Trio. There are so many other reasons why he always fails, and I dunno if most of them are social-interaction related. If anything, he has to fail 'cause Harry has to win.

I don't know if he's struggled for his House position or not. I think he's the type to have assumed certain things, and have some people buy into that and some people just... not. He didn't need to be all that, necessarily, since his father was Lucius Malfoy & he was Snape's favorite, y'know. His father bought the team brooms. And okay, he keeps losing the games for them, but he's all they have, really. Slytherin House isn't exactly portrayed as the most discriminating, socially smart bunch in the world, all that. It's like, well, he's a loser, but the rest of them are worse. At least, I think that's how it was intended.

I do see how Snape would want respect more, yes, but if so, it'd be because Snape has no experience with love, really, whereas for Draco it's either more instinctive or he actually has more of it from his parents than Snape did. He seems coddled even as he's berated a lot.

I don't think I gave Harry's desires enough thought, really. I think belonging is definitely a big part of it, though I don't know if he does feel the love that he's given. He's so insulated and... I don't know if he knows what he has, exactly. I mean, that's a fanon stereotype, right, clueless Harry, but... well, he is pretty clueless. He definitely wants to belong, of course, 'cause the whole House thing was immediately important and instinctive for him-- of course he didn't want to be with the "wrong sort", it's just that he had a different idea of what that meant than Draco did. That said, I think that love is Harry's... er... thing. His lesson. His... well, the thing that he has to come to terms with, deal with. Defeat Voldemort with, somehow or other. Not belonging-- though that's a type of love, familial and social love. I don't think that's the -only- sort he needs in order to... um... mature, to get where he has to go. (-cont)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I mean, I think his mother's sacrifice out of love and Dumbledore saying he loved Harry too much & thus wanted to protect him too much, Harry's own tendency to be protective.... all that... isn't about belonging, except maybe in a more personal sense. And maybe Harry isn't aware of it, but yes... I think he needs/wants a strong bond with individuals. A mother, a father, a brother, rather than something larger, like a whole family. I mean, he appreciates the Weasleys, there's wonderment there, but I don't know if he's ever really thought of Mrs Weasley as a mother or Ron's brothers as his brothers, really. It seems like Harry represents Gryffindor more than Gryffindor represents him. He -is- outside by necessity, being the main hero type of course. Groups could never really fit into that world. He needs individual attention, but not of the sort he's gotten so far from adults. They all wanted him -for- something, or saw him -as- something, as representative of something (which he wouldn't be comfortable with).

I think his tightest bonds are with Ron & Sirius, because even though they see him in terms of their own past histories, they still see -him-. It's a personal connection. Eh, I dunno.

My grasp on Harry is always tenuous at best~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I can't help but like Dumbledore because he's kooky and he means well, and he seems to be saner than most other people with as much power (I mean, compare him with Riddle or Malfoy or Fudge or any of the others). It's like... any mistakes he makes aren't as bad as they could be, and there are necessary evils and small slides of corruption, but like, at least he's not running an evil dictatorship or something. He's kind whenever he can be, I think, and he does have a certain healthy amount of self-awareness. He's the most powerful wizard in the world, supposedly, and that can't possibly sit easy on his shoulders. He must be tempted to do more, holds himself back a lot, and realize that he's powerless in a lot of cases, and realize that he's especially fallible whenever his emotions get involved. He does -have- emotions, though, which is I think what makes him the contrast he is to Riddle, see. Like, okay, his care for Harry has led him down some pretty murky paths, maybe, but that's still so much better than not loving at all and only hating, like Riddle. Or something.

I think more than anything about Dumbledore, that's what's supposed to be reassuring about him-- that he's just an old man who's tired, who sometimes cares too much and who doesn't have many checks and balances on what he does, so he muddles along, really. He's not doing that bad, I don't think, and then there's Harry, who can step in if he really needs to.

I think the people who have the worst issues with Dumbledore just don't see him as realistic-- you know, the benevolent monarch-- but then, Riddle isn't realistic either. They're basically different sides of the same coin, since they're semi-equal in power. Anyway, the author is always going to have total power and almost total knowledge, and it's obviously not really related to good and evil-- it's just theoretical power, kind of pure. I was just comparing her to Dumbledore because of that degree of conscious awareness she has, the way she plans everything out. I dunno if Riddle thinks nearly as hard about the things he does. I mean, there's something he -wants- and he goes after it, he schemes for it, but he doesn't really run through scenarios wholesale. That would be my guess.

Your take on Harry & Draco's opposing relationships with their father figures I agree with completely, of course. I think you've mentioned before, how Harry's all about positive attention and rejecting negative reinforcement and being choosy, while Draco's already all set for a love/hate relationship 'cause he already has one with his father. Even similar rejection/attention issues. It's like, what they expect from relationships is diametrically opposed. Not to say it's incompatible, 'cause I don't know if Draco -wants- the whole mixed signals thing, he's probably just used to it. Though it's interesting, 'cause his parents' flaky attention hasn't resulted in him being off and on himself. Rather the opposite, isn't it?

So maybe in my little fantasy world, he can give Harry just the sort of predictable, steady stream of attention Harry would want/need/expect, and actually, I think Harry would be the flakier one, the one with the periods where he wants to be left alone, when he's distant. Ha. Not that he'd ever go away completely, and Draco's already used to the whole dynamic so maybe he could handle it. Man. I'm so totally going where no part of JKR's mind had gone before ^^;

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I guess I have somewhat mixed up memories on that. On the one hand, I had always been, and still am, very easily distracted by the next shiny thing. On the other hand, I've always been, even as a child, very focused on whatever held my attention, and I don't give it up easily until I've gotten all I can from it. I think I remember it being harder for me to give up on something then (when I was little) than it is now. It's like, -then-, when it was something really important (not like, shiny, but -important-), it took up my whole world. It was like, there wasn't much -else- for me to think about -but- the things I really wanted. I remembered what I wanted really really well.

So I did have that caveat in my mind, that most children wouldn't necessarily act like that, but I don't think Draco's like most children in that regard. He's very focused on his father as the center of his universe (and then Potter, to some degree), and I was thinking of that -clinging- quality of his stubbornness as being child-like rather than thinking of it as "focus". I mean, children don't have -focus-, exactly, it's more that something can grab them and not let go. Like a -really- reallyreally new and complex toy. The complexity, the difficulty level at overcoming or breaking or understanding it-- that would be the sort of thing that'd get and hold my own attention, since childhood. Like a terrier, I was. Still am. But was then, too.

I wasn't thinking of it as forgetting pain. Hmm. It's more... it's not about pain after a certain point. It's more about a -quest-, you know. Getting "it". Getting back. Pursuit. I don't think it's about how he feels, but sort of the principle of the thing. I don't know if he does remember it in a way that includes Potter hurting him, or even his father hurting him. It probably all gets rewritten. What remains is the result, which he doesn't necessarily analyze but continues with because to stop would mean he -lost-. And as long as he doesn't stop, the game isn't over. But er... that's just in my head.

Anyway, I see your point, I was probably just projecting :>

Yeah, it almost seems like Draco's more forgiving, but I think Harry's just more obvious, more direct. Draco just seems to sublimate everything and transfer his emotions to new targets, I guess. Harry isn't very discriminate in OoTP, but in general, he doesn't necessarily take things out on people specifically. Draco's just much more mixed up and he's got more social goals, y'know. He can't necessariy alienate the wrong people; he's pretty conscious on whom he should be on good terms with, and who doesn't matter. So it makes sense that he wouldn't alienate the Slytherins no matter how they acted or what they were like (this is the guy who's "friends" with Crabbe & Goyle), 'cause it's like, he sees them as represenative of "his crowd", whereas Harry actually sees what people -do- and what they're like to him more directly. Of course, in OoTP, he's just pissed at everyone :>

The whole eggshells thing... I haven't noticed so much, but it's been awhile since I read much H/D (and I can't believe I just said that). Heh. I think they're both pretty flammable, but Draco's got more specific triggers, and specific ways of dealing/reacting to them, maybe. Oh man, my head hurts now -.- heh