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reenkaI wonder how that works. I mean... selfishness. Arrogance. Self-centeredness. Pride. Over-confidence. Control, domination, etc.
These are all part of the same package, aren't they?
I've been thinking about what![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nothingbutfic said about post-S5 Buffy's selfishness, especially reading `Bachelor Party' (yep, that's a rec). I mean, the "All About Buffy" syndrome... her arrogance and selfishness, and why that doesn't really bother me. Then again, most people's flaws don't really bother me in theory. Unless they're pompous. That tends to piss me off.
But anyway. It's like... people equate goodness with selflessness, right? But... shouldn't it be more complicated than that? Isn't everyone selfish to some degree, and to different degrees at different times in their life? People call OoTP Harry selfish too. We want our heroes to be... normal, right. Down to earth, anyway, where the power doesn't go to their heads. We want to elevate them but keep them with us at the same time, so that we can identify with them, right?
It's weird how mean people are to each other about the whole selfishness thing-- they tend to accuse each other of it as a last resort, almost like there are few things worse to call someone. I mean, it sort of follows that a selfish, arrogant person can't really -love- because they're... trapped in their heads, maybe?
Just.... Who isn't? Aren't the people who listen to others just dependent, often enough? How often is anyone balanced, anyway? And why do characters (and people) get so little leeway, so little room to go astray, to have years where they're confused and messed up and frustrated and they lash out at their friends? Isn't it still a part of elevating them, if you're expecting them to be "better" somehow?
Well, also... it seems like sometimes arrogance and selfishness and isolationism are necessary defense mechanisms, when one feels incapable of drawing strength from others. Not -unwilling-, but incapable. People under a lot of pressure sort of withdraw, don't they, and would reasonably have this veneer of control and confidence because they can't afford to fall apart? While it's true that teamwork is a sign of strength, how easy is that to do when one is secretly insecure and torn?
Granted, there wasn't a lot of exploration of these issues in S7 for Buffy, but I can see how her behavior is rather to be expected. It bothers me that people always latch on to the weaknesses in others, jump at the chance to deconstruct heroes into lesser beings when they falter. I think it's actually a common trope of superhero-type stories, having the main character get carried away, get so focused on the job that there's nothing else, no room for human emotion and weakness. People can't always reach out-- that's pretty obvious, isn't it? People can't always do what's best. Sometimes, people can just go on, do what they think they have to do, and this robotic-type functioning is all that's keeping them from falling apart.
So... everyone is selfish and arrogant in some ways, sometimes, and I mean, it's not necessarily a huge fault, is it? It's natural and necessary for survival. It's just that people all have their own problems, and most of the times they don't mix, and the combination often sets friends against each other and makes people look bad.
I'm pretty concerned about the accusation that Buffy and Spike are just feeding each other's narcissism. I'm not sure, here, because they're also feeding each other's self-hatred. It's also natural, I think, when you're infatuated with someone, to concentrate on them to the exclusion of all others. And when you have a co-dependent relationship, it gets even more pronounced-- but you still couldn't blame either of them for -having- the co-dependent relationship. A lot of people do-- who could throw stones? It's unhealthy to pretend to be independent and strong while being entirely emotionally dependent on someone like Buffy was on Spike, but it's not surprising, only sad.
I guess I accept most criticisms of both Spike & Buffy & their relationship as shown on the show-- I do this with most characters I like, no matter who they are. The only difference is, I don't accept that as the end-- I see this as a starting point for a lot of possible conclusions, given that things could always evolve with time.
Post-S5 Buffy criticism kind of ties in with a lot of Brian criticism, come to think of it. 'Cause Brian is selfish and arrogant and he pushes people away, right?
The thing to remember is-- first of all, it -works-, and people go with what works. Secondly, it's a defense mechanism and requires a soft touch and patience (like Justin or Spike have, but Buffy's friends really didn't) in order to overcome. A lot of kindness and patience and waiting until enough time passes so that they realize the other person really -is- there for them, and they're not leaving, and it's okay to let go. I think that in both cases (Brian & Buffy), what they need to change for the better is unconditional love and a good dose of nonjudgemental understanding. Meet selfishness with love, and eventually... the person stops feeling the need to grab for everything they could get, because it's freely and constantly offered.
I think people reinforce selfish, controlling & arrogant behavior by calling the person a "selfish bastard" or whatever and getting angry and dismissive. I guess I should clarify that I'm not trying to be an apologist here, for either Buffy or Brian. I'm not saying they're -not- the way they are, or that they're excused by their issues. I'm just saying that their behavior is very human, and deserves to be understood so that it can be detected in other cases and hopefully changed or even prevented.
These are all part of the same package, aren't they?
I've been thinking about what
nothingbutfic said about post-S5 Buffy's selfishness, especially reading `Bachelor Party' (yep, that's a rec). I mean, the "All About Buffy" syndrome... her arrogance and selfishness, and why that doesn't really bother me. Then again, most people's flaws don't really bother me in theory. Unless they're pompous. That tends to piss me off.But anyway. It's like... people equate goodness with selflessness, right? But... shouldn't it be more complicated than that? Isn't everyone selfish to some degree, and to different degrees at different times in their life? People call OoTP Harry selfish too. We want our heroes to be... normal, right. Down to earth, anyway, where the power doesn't go to their heads. We want to elevate them but keep them with us at the same time, so that we can identify with them, right?
It's weird how mean people are to each other about the whole selfishness thing-- they tend to accuse each other of it as a last resort, almost like there are few things worse to call someone. I mean, it sort of follows that a selfish, arrogant person can't really -love- because they're... trapped in their heads, maybe?
Just.... Who isn't? Aren't the people who listen to others just dependent, often enough? How often is anyone balanced, anyway? And why do characters (and people) get so little leeway, so little room to go astray, to have years where they're confused and messed up and frustrated and they lash out at their friends? Isn't it still a part of elevating them, if you're expecting them to be "better" somehow?
Well, also... it seems like sometimes arrogance and selfishness and isolationism are necessary defense mechanisms, when one feels incapable of drawing strength from others. Not -unwilling-, but incapable. People under a lot of pressure sort of withdraw, don't they, and would reasonably have this veneer of control and confidence because they can't afford to fall apart? While it's true that teamwork is a sign of strength, how easy is that to do when one is secretly insecure and torn?
Granted, there wasn't a lot of exploration of these issues in S7 for Buffy, but I can see how her behavior is rather to be expected. It bothers me that people always latch on to the weaknesses in others, jump at the chance to deconstruct heroes into lesser beings when they falter. I think it's actually a common trope of superhero-type stories, having the main character get carried away, get so focused on the job that there's nothing else, no room for human emotion and weakness. People can't always reach out-- that's pretty obvious, isn't it? People can't always do what's best. Sometimes, people can just go on, do what they think they have to do, and this robotic-type functioning is all that's keeping them from falling apart.
So... everyone is selfish and arrogant in some ways, sometimes, and I mean, it's not necessarily a huge fault, is it? It's natural and necessary for survival. It's just that people all have their own problems, and most of the times they don't mix, and the combination often sets friends against each other and makes people look bad.
I'm pretty concerned about the accusation that Buffy and Spike are just feeding each other's narcissism. I'm not sure, here, because they're also feeding each other's self-hatred. It's also natural, I think, when you're infatuated with someone, to concentrate on them to the exclusion of all others. And when you have a co-dependent relationship, it gets even more pronounced-- but you still couldn't blame either of them for -having- the co-dependent relationship. A lot of people do-- who could throw stones? It's unhealthy to pretend to be independent and strong while being entirely emotionally dependent on someone like Buffy was on Spike, but it's not surprising, only sad.
I guess I accept most criticisms of both Spike & Buffy & their relationship as shown on the show-- I do this with most characters I like, no matter who they are. The only difference is, I don't accept that as the end-- I see this as a starting point for a lot of possible conclusions, given that things could always evolve with time.
Post-S5 Buffy criticism kind of ties in with a lot of Brian criticism, come to think of it. 'Cause Brian is selfish and arrogant and he pushes people away, right?
The thing to remember is-- first of all, it -works-, and people go with what works. Secondly, it's a defense mechanism and requires a soft touch and patience (like Justin or Spike have, but Buffy's friends really didn't) in order to overcome. A lot of kindness and patience and waiting until enough time passes so that they realize the other person really -is- there for them, and they're not leaving, and it's okay to let go. I think that in both cases (Brian & Buffy), what they need to change for the better is unconditional love and a good dose of nonjudgemental understanding. Meet selfishness with love, and eventually... the person stops feeling the need to grab for everything they could get, because it's freely and constantly offered.
I think people reinforce selfish, controlling & arrogant behavior by calling the person a "selfish bastard" or whatever and getting angry and dismissive. I guess I should clarify that I'm not trying to be an apologist here, for either Buffy or Brian. I'm not saying they're -not- the way they are, or that they're excused by their issues. I'm just saying that their behavior is very human, and deserves to be understood so that it can be detected in other cases and hopefully changed or even prevented.
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no subject
Date: 2004-02-02 07:06 pm (UTC)Mmmmm not me. At all. I like my heros flawed and human... I like them blind, selfish, childish. Maybe that's why I fell in love with Harry during OotP... why I really loved and identified with Buffy for the first time during season six. I worshipped the show before that, but Buffy was never my favorite character until that season. I like their rough spots... the anger and darkness, the mistakes they will inevitably make out of impatience and rage... yet I still think of them as heros. I think it is the fact that they face all that and still manage to save the world every time that makes me love them so.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-02 07:12 pm (UTC)Yeah, me too. I think, though, that most people are pretty merciless to whoever they put up on a pedestal, y'know. Heroes are usually held to higher standards, all that. Though I definitely see the room for criticism of S7 Buffy... maybe I didn't make that clear enough. She -is- being selfish & arrogant & etc much moreso than OoTP Harry was... Buffy -wa- assuming control.
It's just that there are always reasons-- not necessarily -excuses-, but just... reasons.
I think I prolly should've re-edited this before posting, but I'm so lazy -.-
Re:
Date: 2004-02-02 07:16 pm (UTC)But yes. Reasons. And that's what makes characters interesting.
I got scolded not too long ago for making the distinction between a reason and an excuse. I still think I was right. The are very different things. And yes, I think S7 Buffy is being very selfish... though I think mostly out of fear and doubt.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-04 02:38 pm (UTC)It especially riles me when people criticize Buffy. Especially in S7, she had all this in-show pressure to save the day and make sure everyone was alright, and still be "normal". I think the same thing about early S3 -- she was supposed to buck up, move on, be normal, etc. It's like she has to fulfill what everyone else needs her to be, and because she was the hero, she wasn't supposed to go through her own shit.
And it bothers me so much when fans tear apart a "hero" of a show for not being perfect. I have to agree with the above comments - characters only become interesting to me when they are flawed. And honestly, the more flawed they are, the more interesting they are. This is probably why I liked Cordelia less and less as Angel went on. And why I only got into the Harry Potter fandom after OotP.
And um, anyway, just wanted to tell you that I think you're spot on. You've articulated something I've always felt but could never express, so thanks!