~~ morality-playerama.
Jan. 22nd, 2004 06:23 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaEr, right then. For some reason, I want to make yet -another- post on BtVS. This is getting out of hand. Sooo... I'm thinking of making a Buffy filter. That would be good. So um... if you want in, just comment or something. 'Cause it seems silly to make a poll just for this. Right then. If no one says anything, I guess I'll filter this to Erin alone from now on, eheheheh.
Reading `Still Life in Sunnydale', which is a Season 6 AU where Spike gets Warren to take his chip out & then kills him, post `Seeing Red'-- it hits me once again. I can't seem to see Warren as a Big Bad. As someone worthy of hatred and revenge.
It's easy to write off people who're impossible to empathize with-- clear-cut villains, people who're deeply stupid and violent, people who get off on torturing children, that sort of thing. It just bothers me that so many people like vampires (blood-sucking demons, etc) and seem to have this huge issue with Warren. I mean, maybe this means that Warren hits too close to home-- is less of a fantasy. But I just keep thinking that everyone's "slaying" and good/evil concepts are based in a type of fantasy-- Buffy's and the vampires' and Warren's. Buffy has this whole savior complex and Warren has this whole supervillain complex and the vampires have this whole "we're demons, aaaayyyyyy" thing going on. They're all insane, technically, outside of their own context.
There seems to be a difference in my mind between cold-blooded deviousness (there are many more examples of it in the Potterverse than in the Jossverse-- possibly because the former is more archetypical) and maddened, deranged scheming. Warren wants to take over the world, wants to be a super-villain. He's basically insane. Why don't more people realize this? He's no more sober than the vampires are. He's not really aware of what he's doing. I think Buffy & Angel & Willow have more capacity for true evil, because they -understand- what the price is, what the stakes are. They're not children, and still they fall. Look at Willow! Why does no one hate -her-? Oh, right, she wasn't in her right mind. Sort of. Grey area, right?
Now-- let's pretend the vampires are human-- they are just basically pumped up, possessed humans anyway. They'd be classified as insane-- psychotic, right? Willow got possessed too, by another sort of power. Everyone's possessed by something-- rage, if nothing else-- that makes them snap and go all psychotic. In the end though, they're still human. Vampires, I mean. Then again, I think that "monster" is a myth people tell themselves to dissociate themselves from behavior they find impossible to empathize with. That they don't -want- to empathize with. But to have a "monster", don't you need an opposite? Something they're -not-? And what person is anti-monstrous? Completely pure? And how is that "normal"? This, of course, gets into all the morass of one's notions of normality, also.
I was just disturbed by my own discomfort with the palpable anti-Warren vibe I keep encountering. It's like, are my own morals being wonky? Why am not anti-Warren?
I would almost say I'm anti-Spike-- the early Spike, when he wasn't self-conscious-- almost. He had nothing recognizable as "moral fiber" whatsoever, but I can't blame him, and I wouldn't call him monstrous. If he really didn't have a consciousness of self, an awareness of right & wrong-- then how could he be blamed? He's just a predator-- no different than a tiger, for all his intelligence. It is only after he becomes aware of the real consequences of his actions that you could say he's capable of being judged by human standards-- which, by the way, you would have to be applying to him in order to judge him at all, pre-chip. Thus, I simply withold judgement on pre-chip Spike. He bothers me-- I wish he'd hurry up and become self-aware-- but he also amuses me and attracts me like any slinky gorgeous predator would. Plus, you know, the amusement factor.
`Still Life in Sunnydale' is pretty interesting because it gives us a post-chip Spike who chooses to take it out & return to his old ways. Then makes a human-centric moral judgement and kills the people threatening Buffy, vigilante-style. And then you have Buffy's rather confused moral reaction. I myself would say that while the soul gave Spike guilt, it was the chip that forced him to confront himself less emotionally-- to make more sober choices. The chip gave him a taste of human moral judgements-- allowed him to act like a man enough so that he could almost pretend he was a man. And that belief-- that's at the center of it all. It's the awareness of self, that belief that he could (almost) be a man. It didn't matter if he -was-, as much as it mattered that he felt like he could be.
It bothers me that people get so much more riled up about Warren than the vampires, though it reminds me of how people felt about Umbridge. It's almost like there's more of an outrage towards petty evil because that's what most people understand better-- because they feel themselves in danger of becoming that or doing that, maybe? I'm not sure. For instance, a lot more people hate Draco Malfoy than Tom Riddle. Why? Draco is nothing-- he's a brat. Why is he worthy of hatred? It's like... people don't -hate- evil because they're -afraid- of it, and that's a different ballgame altogether, isn't it? Because hating petty, nearly harmless evil makes you feel more powerful-- you know you'd win. But with demons and insane villainous all-powerful wizards-- not so easy, is it?
Maybe I'm all defensive of Warren because I think he's actually a closer parallel to Draco than Spike is, believe it or not. I think fanon!Draco's more Spikeish, but canon!Draco is a lot like Warren, man. He's obsessive and clingy-pathetic and largely ineffectual and laughable and bitter. Warren's funnier, though. Still. This is petty, human, petulant and pointless. It's not cool to be like that-- it's pathetic. And doesn't it say something about people that they have this bloodlust towards the pathetic, weak "villains"? How petty and low is -that-?
I think people get too caught up in "cool" Spike, early-BtVS Spike, and forget that he was always pathetic and disenfranchised and downtrodden. That's why his journey is so awesome, why it has such meaning that in the end, he saves the world-- because this truly is a triumph of will, for him. He wasn't always so cool. There are parallels, I think, in his character arc and that of Faith and possibly Andrew.
They didn't all triumph in the same way or to the same extent, but they struggled with similar things, didn't they. I think they have a lot in common. They all had to face the most unlovely parts of themselves and get beyond that somehow. They all had to pay the price. Everyone does. If you stop at early Spike, then you don't allow him that gift, I think. The gift Buffy received at the end of Season 5-- just as she gave it, I think she did receive it. And it's not that that's the ultimate moment of glory-- becoming selfless, that is. That's why I'm glad BtVS didn't end there-- because there's life beyond that. You don't just stop-- you don't get to die and tie everything up with a nice bow-- you keep going, and it's messy and painful and pitiful and you lose ground, always reaching new heights if you keep trying. Always new heights to reach.
But yes. Warren. He didn't deserve to die.
Reading `Still Life in Sunnydale', which is a Season 6 AU where Spike gets Warren to take his chip out & then kills him, post `Seeing Red'-- it hits me once again. I can't seem to see Warren as a Big Bad. As someone worthy of hatred and revenge.
It's easy to write off people who're impossible to empathize with-- clear-cut villains, people who're deeply stupid and violent, people who get off on torturing children, that sort of thing. It just bothers me that so many people like vampires (blood-sucking demons, etc) and seem to have this huge issue with Warren. I mean, maybe this means that Warren hits too close to home-- is less of a fantasy. But I just keep thinking that everyone's "slaying" and good/evil concepts are based in a type of fantasy-- Buffy's and the vampires' and Warren's. Buffy has this whole savior complex and Warren has this whole supervillain complex and the vampires have this whole "we're demons, aaaayyyyyy" thing going on. They're all insane, technically, outside of their own context.
There seems to be a difference in my mind between cold-blooded deviousness (there are many more examples of it in the Potterverse than in the Jossverse-- possibly because the former is more archetypical) and maddened, deranged scheming. Warren wants to take over the world, wants to be a super-villain. He's basically insane. Why don't more people realize this? He's no more sober than the vampires are. He's not really aware of what he's doing. I think Buffy & Angel & Willow have more capacity for true evil, because they -understand- what the price is, what the stakes are. They're not children, and still they fall. Look at Willow! Why does no one hate -her-? Oh, right, she wasn't in her right mind. Sort of. Grey area, right?
Now-- let's pretend the vampires are human-- they are just basically pumped up, possessed humans anyway. They'd be classified as insane-- psychotic, right? Willow got possessed too, by another sort of power. Everyone's possessed by something-- rage, if nothing else-- that makes them snap and go all psychotic. In the end though, they're still human. Vampires, I mean. Then again, I think that "monster" is a myth people tell themselves to dissociate themselves from behavior they find impossible to empathize with. That they don't -want- to empathize with. But to have a "monster", don't you need an opposite? Something they're -not-? And what person is anti-monstrous? Completely pure? And how is that "normal"? This, of course, gets into all the morass of one's notions of normality, also.
I was just disturbed by my own discomfort with the palpable anti-Warren vibe I keep encountering. It's like, are my own morals being wonky? Why am not anti-Warren?
I would almost say I'm anti-Spike-- the early Spike, when he wasn't self-conscious-- almost. He had nothing recognizable as "moral fiber" whatsoever, but I can't blame him, and I wouldn't call him monstrous. If he really didn't have a consciousness of self, an awareness of right & wrong-- then how could he be blamed? He's just a predator-- no different than a tiger, for all his intelligence. It is only after he becomes aware of the real consequences of his actions that you could say he's capable of being judged by human standards-- which, by the way, you would have to be applying to him in order to judge him at all, pre-chip. Thus, I simply withold judgement on pre-chip Spike. He bothers me-- I wish he'd hurry up and become self-aware-- but he also amuses me and attracts me like any slinky gorgeous predator would. Plus, you know, the amusement factor.
`Still Life in Sunnydale' is pretty interesting because it gives us a post-chip Spike who chooses to take it out & return to his old ways. Then makes a human-centric moral judgement and kills the people threatening Buffy, vigilante-style. And then you have Buffy's rather confused moral reaction. I myself would say that while the soul gave Spike guilt, it was the chip that forced him to confront himself less emotionally-- to make more sober choices. The chip gave him a taste of human moral judgements-- allowed him to act like a man enough so that he could almost pretend he was a man. And that belief-- that's at the center of it all. It's the awareness of self, that belief that he could (almost) be a man. It didn't matter if he -was-, as much as it mattered that he felt like he could be.
It bothers me that people get so much more riled up about Warren than the vampires, though it reminds me of how people felt about Umbridge. It's almost like there's more of an outrage towards petty evil because that's what most people understand better-- because they feel themselves in danger of becoming that or doing that, maybe? I'm not sure. For instance, a lot more people hate Draco Malfoy than Tom Riddle. Why? Draco is nothing-- he's a brat. Why is he worthy of hatred? It's like... people don't -hate- evil because they're -afraid- of it, and that's a different ballgame altogether, isn't it? Because hating petty, nearly harmless evil makes you feel more powerful-- you know you'd win. But with demons and insane villainous all-powerful wizards-- not so easy, is it?
Maybe I'm all defensive of Warren because I think he's actually a closer parallel to Draco than Spike is, believe it or not. I think fanon!Draco's more Spikeish, but canon!Draco is a lot like Warren, man. He's obsessive and clingy-pathetic and largely ineffectual and laughable and bitter. Warren's funnier, though. Still. This is petty, human, petulant and pointless. It's not cool to be like that-- it's pathetic. And doesn't it say something about people that they have this bloodlust towards the pathetic, weak "villains"? How petty and low is -that-?
I think people get too caught up in "cool" Spike, early-BtVS Spike, and forget that he was always pathetic and disenfranchised and downtrodden. That's why his journey is so awesome, why it has such meaning that in the end, he saves the world-- because this truly is a triumph of will, for him. He wasn't always so cool. There are parallels, I think, in his character arc and that of Faith and possibly Andrew.
They didn't all triumph in the same way or to the same extent, but they struggled with similar things, didn't they. I think they have a lot in common. They all had to face the most unlovely parts of themselves and get beyond that somehow. They all had to pay the price. Everyone does. If you stop at early Spike, then you don't allow him that gift, I think. The gift Buffy received at the end of Season 5-- just as she gave it, I think she did receive it. And it's not that that's the ultimate moment of glory-- becoming selfless, that is. That's why I'm glad BtVS didn't end there-- because there's life beyond that. You don't just stop-- you don't get to die and tie everything up with a nice bow-- you keep going, and it's messy and painful and pitiful and you lose ground, always reaching new heights if you keep trying. Always new heights to reach.
But yes. Warren. He didn't deserve to die.
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no subject
Date: 2004-01-22 03:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 02:28 am (UTC)i don't like filtering things anyway, but. i think my own tendency to latch on to new fandoms and then spew meta on them almost immediately kind of... disturbs me :>
no subject
Date: 2004-01-22 03:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 02:26 am (UTC)i don't mean porn. i just seem to be particularly attracted to fics where people rewrite season 7, eheheheh.
but yes. i am glad you two see the Glory that is warren!draco, ehehe! though i'm entirely unsurprised, i've got to say~:))
no subject
Date: 2004-01-22 04:05 pm (UTC)I never quite understood the Warren hate either. I don't see him as so very different to Andrew or Jonathan really. They aren't truely a "Big Bad" because, as you say they don't really seem entirely aware of their own actions. He didn't deserve to die, no, but I think something changes once he kills Katrina. That's the point at which the others start to wake up and he doesn't. Perhaps that shows more that he really had a problem rather than he was evil but there was a change.
As for the Warren-Draco parallel, I'd never thoguht about it before. I suppose it makes a sort of sense, I'll have to think about it a bit more though.
*tries to resist the lure of Buffy fic*
*fails*
no subject
Date: 2004-01-24 03:01 am (UTC)But yes. I did notice the shift once he killed Katrina. It became serious. I mean, it's not like I'm saying Warren is a fluffy bunny-- it's more greyish & messed up than that. I just don't think you could write him off as entirely monstrous, like-- barely even worth judging by the same standards you allow other human beings. People just go all out with Warren. It's disturbing to me. Just because he is what he is-- doesn't mean the punishment should mirror the crime, y'know.
But then, it's rather clear that I'm a big softie, isn't it :>
no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 02:04 am (UTC)A RAPIST?
PLEASE GOD NO.
*is cowardly and looks away*
no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 02:22 am (UTC)i guess that's one thing spike & warren have in common, isn't it -.-
also, ahahah, your draco has more moral fibre than your harry, is that what you're saying? ehehehhe. 'cause you made harry worse than a rapist, man. *waggles eyebrows*
I mean, you know, warren didn't -rape- katrina. he just... took over her free will. no biggie :>
no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 02:56 am (UTC)*hysterics*
Oh reena, he's horrible, horrible, horrible! And you know, well, okay, yes... I did that thing... but he was all crazy from loss of loved ones and war trauma and craziness!
and Warren. like. got broken up with for making a sex toy. I mean.
Gah. Hate Warren, hate him, hate him.
and I hate that I can't absolutely say Draco would never. But I hope he would never. Never never never.
*weeps and flails*
no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 05:13 am (UTC)Rape is a different thing. Different sets of standards, slightly. Not so much with the Grand Evil scale of things. More-- something 80% of men could do if under the right circumstances, pushed the right way. I mean, the only thing that makes seduction different than most rape is that the person likes it. So. Y'know. The actual -action- of not waiting to see if the person wants you to jump them is similar.
I was never actually as disturbed by Spike's attempted rape as most people were. I saw it as inevitable & logical, even, given their relationship & power-games and so on, and the way Buffy raped -him-, kind of, as their first encounter, even though he wanted it. It's not as if she was like, "pretty please" and it's not as if he'd ever say no.
Clearly, Warren's different-- but again, he's insane. Craziness ahoy, for whatever reason (even if it's not war). I just don't think he knew what he was doing, that's all I was saying.
*hugs, pets* Draco wouldn't, if only because most people would kick his ass before he even got anywhere close to that~:))
<3 ahahahah you know it's true :D
no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 07:29 am (UTC)I mean... okay, leaving aside the Spike/Buffy, which was a very twisted relationship with disturbed and uber-physically-powerful people who used violence as a way of life et cetera, and thus which I don't judge by common standards and intend to leave alone.
I mean, I see what you're saying about the evil o'Warren as compared to the evil o'world destruction. But. But!
I really really hope it's not true that 80% of men are capable of rape. Because, yeah, can feel fragile faith in mankind crumbling away. Because sex should ideally be two people who *really really want to*, and should probably be at least two people who can be persuaded to have a bit of fun. And turning it into hurting someone and dominion over someone and... well, it's like being into torturing people horribly to get off on it.
But Warren *controlled the mind* of someone he was in a real relationship with in order to get sex, someone he knew and felt great affection for as a person, and anyone wanting to do that is just... Well. *So* contemptible.
And I hope Draco isn't that contemptible, because the day I find out he is I leave fandom.
PS - First real disagreement of ours, I feel! Wished to state that I still adored you.
no subject
Date: 2004-01-24 01:46 am (UTC)It's interesting that so many people single it out of all the other ways people torture & dominate each other as especially horrid. And it probably is. On the other hand, it's also one of the more... I dunno... complicated wrongs. Because violence and power & sex -are- connected, sometimes in a healthy way. And often enough unhealthy.
And it's interesting, differentiating what Warren did and what Spike did. I mean... I was never arguing that Warren wasn't being horrible-- but I just attribute that to psychosis. He was completely bent. Had no real grip on reality. Spike, on the other hand, was pretty much the usual. Under no undue influence. not even heavy rage.
So... 80%.... I dunno. I think I said that meaning that most people are capable of most things under the right circumstances, y'know? We all have the seeds of evil within us. Like... it's more about what we -choose- to do rather than what we -can- (or can't) do. So I wouldn't say most people -can't- or would -never- rape/kill/torture. I -would- say that (clearly) most people -don't-, and I do think that means a lot.
Most people, for whatever reason, do -not- do these things. See? No reason to lose faith. It's just... my own faith in humanity is based on feeling like people can -overcome- rather than they don't possess the potential in the first place. Sometimes it's love that stops us, sometimes guilt, sometimes pure habitual inhibition-- but it -does- stop us. So that's the key word there-- capable.
It's like... in a way... I both condemn and redeem everyone. Does that make sense to you? I wouldn't say that anyone is "too good" for something, because usually that just means they haven't been pushed in the right way. Case in point: more than 80% of Germany became Nazis, man. I mean. Hey. They didn't join the army, but they were the silent supporting masses. Are they guilty? Hell yes. But are they different from us? No.
On the other hand, I also think we all possess equal or greater potential for kindness & love-- with the right inspiration.
As far as Warren... I just felt that in the context of what the other characters around him did, no one could very well throw stones, y'know? What he did was awful and I don't particularly like or respect him. But! Turning him into a monster greater than the others is unfair. That's all.
And heeeeee, it's okay because disagreeing with you doesn't hurt 'cause I never go on the defensive. It's just so much fun talking to you~:)) *loves*
no subject
Date: 2004-01-24 09:22 am (UTC)I think my beef with Warren was that he *didn't* seem psychotic to me at first. Nasty, contemptible, creepy for making his perfect girlfriend, but I thought it was kind of sweet that he went for Real Love in the first episode he was in, and I thought he was harmless like Jonathan and Andrew even when they were all 'whee shall take over world!' and then there he was, all about coercing the woman he said he loved into... *that.* and yes, I do think that Jonathan and Andrew were also horribly culpable, but at least they had the *switch.* you know what I mean? that *switch* of decency, albeit DElayed, which was 'ugh no not your ex-girlfriend!' and 'omg we didn't think of it as rape omg.' So I was working from the initial perception that Warren was sane, and also nothing *happened* to him to drive him insane. He was lonely, it seems, and that's all we know of. It is different from seeing your beloved gunned down before you, while still being just off some incredibly powerful drugs. Not that destroying world is at all excusable, it's just that we're given reasons to sympathise with Willow as well (and Spike, imo), whereas Warren we just see as awful awful awful.
and... wah. I want Draco to have the *switch.* I hope he does.
yes, <3!
no subject
Date: 2004-01-25 02:09 am (UTC)The "switch" is an interesting metaphor... I think that's what gets destroyed or damaged by shock or trauama, I guess-- it probably has something to do with the frontal lobe & the more advanced superego-ish centers in one's brain, overriding the id and such. The emergency override. Most people have it if they're sane unless they're under high emotional duress. So I mean, it's not a question of being "good" or "evil", for me-- just a question of motivation and/or duress.
I suppose pre-existing personality (what kind of person someone is) does come into it.... But for me, that's hard to judge from someone's actions, maybe because I hate putting stamps on people with any sort of finality. I may judge, but I judge fleetingly. But you're right-- I mean, I do see your point and you've totally got me. I think we're talking about slightly different approaches to the same dilemma, but if I take your set of givens as fact, then you're absolutely right~:)
I mean, it's just hard for me to say... okay, so he's not diagnostically insane because apparently he has no "reason"-- thus he's a bad person. I mean, lots of people snap with no reason except their brains are wired to be mad, y'know? I always thought Warren had a screw loose-- what exact type of screw, I'm not sure, but a screw. Heh. His missing screw was just more serious than Andrew & Jonathan's missing screws. Warren's missing screw seemed to progress in its effects on him, like a tumor or something. Eventually, the right situation came along (the opportunity) and the havok caused began to reflect the true extent of the damage there all along. At least, that's my half-cocked psycho-babble theory~:)
I don't think Draco has a missing screw-- he's just naive, so far. Spike has a missing soul screw in this metaphor, ahahahah. God, I amuse myself >:D
[edited to say Warren instead of Andrew. duh. -.-]
no subject
That gave me a Keanu "whoa" epiphanic moment there. Whoa.
no subject
Date: 2004-01-23 03:10 am (UTC)Damnit, must your posts always make me think? B-)
Oh crap, I just can't shut up.
Date: 2004-01-23 03:28 am (UTC)I shall stop spamming your LJ now. :))
Re: Oh crap, I just can't shut up. Part Deux
Date: 2004-01-23 03:31 am (UTC)Oh HELLO, Crabbe and Goyle!!!
Re: Oh crap, I just can't shut up.
Date: 2004-01-23 05:56 am (UTC)I honestly have no idea what my original point all this was.
*Trudges back to work*
no subject
Date: 2004-01-24 03:14 am (UTC)Hmm. I dunno if Katrina's murder was "cold-blooded". I mean... did he know what he was doing? It really didn't seem that way to me. You could argue it, I suppose. I think Warren is a lot more characterized than Draco is, so there are all these nuances to Warren that Draco doesn't have, canonically. That said, I think Warren's evolution owes a lot to his obsession with supervillains and his lack of any real impediment or boundary to his abilities-- he was always a total free agent, and his apparent scientific genius was combined with an almost complete lack of common sense. So yeah, he's a bit of a freak. Draco's much more normal 'cause he simply doesn't have the "gifts" to get away with all that stuff-- he hasn't got the brain or magical talent to exploit and misuse, y'know?
I do think that Spike has things in common both with Warren & with Draco (as I think I'd said), but I also think that the places they're coming from, at heart, are pretty different. My main inspiration for Spike-as-Draco is his relationship to Buffy-as-Harry, which I think has a lot of similarities to H/D in terms of dynamic moreso than in terms of specific characterization. Together, they remind me of H/D, I guess, 'cause of the way I imagine Draco reacting to Harry.
I mean, these little details of behavior-- are almsot coincidences, one way or another, the way I see it. It's not like they couldn't both go either way in the future, y'know? Spike could be a leader or a follower, depending on his circumstances. He follows Buffy & Angel & Drusilla, y'know-- he just has to have the right motivation. Spike & Draco do have this sort of hidden subservience to them both. They act all tough and arrogant, but in both cases I think it's an act, something they consciously try to do.
As far as Draco being a natural-born leader... no, he probably isn't. I dunno if Spike is, either. I generally wouldn't push a comparison between those two too far, anyway. They're pretty different, although the dynamic is similar. Then again, any push-pull love/hate dynamic is going to be similar. You could start comparing Mulder/Krycek to H/D and that to B/S too, if you wanted. Though there are other, less compatible parallels too-- like, I don't think it fits with Spike/Xander or Draco/Ron or something, 'cause you do need a strongly heroic counterpart for the match to work, so that the arrogant, seemingly dominant negatively charged half (the 'bad guy") becomes a sub, eheheheh. *rubs hands gleefully*
no subject
Date: 2004-01-24 09:20 am (UTC)My main inspiration for Spike-as-Draco is his relationship to Buffy-as-Harry, which I think has a lot of similarities to H/D in terms of dynamic moreso than in terms of specific characterization.
Gotcha. That makes sense.
Er well, I've no more points to add because you've rounded out the discussion quite nicely. I agree that there are too many factors to make clear-cut parallels. I rather imagine the Spike/Warren/Draco thing as one of those charts with overlapping circles. (I am so scientifik!)
I shall now go and massage my brain. 8-)