~~ maybe we all miss the screaming :>

[reenka]

Lasair just linked to isiscolo's post saying she's reading a Snape/Hermione & enjoying it. Well, this doesn't even come close to describing -my- pain, man. I had a Harry/Snape dream. I was Harry, and then I became a girl because I couldn't really -do- male/male sex and I panicked. Not to worry, I woke up before I could be actually traumatized, there. I mean. Do I get H/D dreams? Noooo. I have to be like, "omg, dream!Snape is so hotttt". Embarrassing. ('Course, the truth is, I'd go for Snape before Draco, ahahahah, um. Change subject!)
~~

I think what it comes down to is, there are some things I don't -want- to understand. So there are questions I return to, simply because the questions are easier to handle than any answer. I think people in general are well-known for avoiding certain aspects of reality and for not wanting to understand those aspects. Something about me makes me keep poking, though.

Getting off on others' or your own pain, for instance. On some level, I just don't -want- to get it. I can see that pain and pleasure can have a blurry physiological boundary in one's brain at some point-- but this doesn't apply to psychological pain, to another person's pain or tellingly, to fictional pain.

I understand that some people have drastically different mental landscapes and needs than I, and that on some level I will just never understand what it's really like to live a life made of choices that are truly alien to me. I'm not sure whether I should just make peace with that or whether I should keep trying to find that hidden point of contact. I do understand enjoying violence-- tied as that is with anger in my mind. I understand rage and the fear that can fuel it. Anger can be such a release, such a burst of endorphins and a heady feeling that one's invincible. There's a near-universal attraction to that, I think.

What I'm actually thinking about is-- people who want to hurt characters they love in their fiction, and this whole connection of love with the infliction of torture, mental or physical.


Now-- hurt/comfort, I can understand much more easily. There's a balance to it, a sort of nurturing instinct gone amok, perhaps. But I can't help but question the mental health of a writer who honestly takes pleasure in fictional character-torture. I realize that fiction is not reality. I still think that our fantasies reveal as much or more about us than our actions. Call me embarrassingly Freudian if you want, but I think most psychologists would agree that dreams and fantasies are important reflections of one's psyche, even if they'd place different amounts of emphasis on them. So all this talk of "it's just fiction" doesn't quite cut it for me.

Mind you, I'm not condemning-- just trying to work out my own issues here.

I wonder if Shakespeare got off on killing Romeo and Juliet and driving Ophelia insane. If Dickens really really liked keeping Pip from finding happiness. If Hugo had fun making Quasimodo's life hell, and so on. I mean, the idea seems almost laughable to me. When one has created a good character, they take on a life of their own. I would imagine that to hurt them would take something out of the writer-- and in fact, the writer would likely prefer not to, except that the story winds up demanding certain events. I know that it takes a deep toll on -me-, writing painful scenes. I simply -can't- enjoy being on the verge of a spontaneous depression-- but perhaps it's a matter of a widely divergent writing process. Perhaps if you enjoy putting your characters through hell, you don't really identify with them. Or you don't want anyone to be happy, really.

And that last idea, I must admit, somewhat concerns me. It's not that I have some issue with tragedy or character angst-- I write it, I read it, I admire it, etc. The issue is the writer's emotional relationship with the work. It seems like the idea of depicting suffering is to cause a sympathetic reaction in the reader (and most probably in the writer). The ancient Greeks apparently thought that tragedy was edifying-- that the response of pity and tears was the sign of creative success. One cries and learns something-- or laughs and learns something. Seeing human suffering and feeling pleasure-- and moreover, being meant to do so-- seems new in the history of the arts. But perhaps I am naive. I suppose the audiences to war epics were usually supposed to feel entertained rather than sickened-- but then, war was being shown as glorious, whereas mental agony is difficult to make glorious.

Even so, the phenomenon of "I love to see my darlings in pain" seems a whole different kettle of fish.

I just don't know. I think I'd need to actually do research for this. Thoughts?

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

go away, let me sleep! *weg*
i know what i like. always. and why i like it. i can always explain in depth. but i want to know why other people like certain things, and i would like other people to know themselves why they do. other people mostly don´t want to do that. i know they get aggressive because of a defense mechanism, but that does not make it any better. and like an itch, i can´t stop scratching until they make me bleed. ;)

what was this thread about, mainly the male pregnancies? for me, this falls into the one category (of about 4 basic types) of slash that relies heavily on heterosexual norms. i keep thinking what the local slashers would say about my heteric statement, but they don´t read my lj anyway, so i could go on *ggg*

i confess i never came across one and keep wondering about the intestines of the pregnant male in question. but mpreg falls into the wider category of females-disguised-as-males stories, which i don´t find particularly exciting.

and on that indecisive, vague and blah note, i will leave now. bed. work tomorrow. bye!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yeah.
Um. I guess you'll be reading this tomorrow, then ~:)
I still feel bad 'cause I -was- kind of aggressive in my "what the fuck" rhetoric in the "why mpreg, why God why" post on the veelainc list. I mean, it's not-so-good to put people on the spot and act like they're freaks of nature. I wouldn't have been so forceful if the mpreg fic that the list keeps being spammed with wasn't so horribly awfully written, too. But like the true lady I am, I didn't mention that :D :D

I mean, spare_change thinks the mpreg is just a kink and I should just accept it as a kink. I shouldn't question people's kink 'cause it's like a strawberry-vs-chocolate preference (according to her). And well.... okay, but that doesn't quite work for me! Mind you, she's someone who -is- willing to discuss things and -is- thoughtful about her feelings & preferences, but even so she's convinced we like things because we like them, in the end.

I mean... I can accept that, on a certain level, you know? Like... why do I like Harry slamming Draco against the wall and kissing him roughly more than them holding hands and looking into each other's eyes and softly kissing as their hearts swelled? I mean... that's a kink. I don't think I can explain it beyond "I like it rough and passionate". I can then go on about how I like passion and intensity-- but as to -why- I like passion and intensity, that'd be harder to explain, y'know? So I'm of two minds about it. I can say what appeals to me about it, but that's not the same as that being -why- I enjoy it. It's just -what- I enjoy about it.

The people writing to me about mpreg explained, saying that to them, it's all about the bonding aspect of the two boys suddenly thrown together by this sudden life-changing event that affects them both. It's like the usual potions accident where the boys are now empathic/telepathic, in that way. Initially, I too thought it was a Mary Sue thing, and probably for some people it is (and here spare_change would tell me Mary Sues are a kink and thus to be accepted-- which I suppose I can see). But now I can see how there's more to it, and that's helpful to me. Making the boys girly-- even if it's a kink-- just pisses me off 'cause it's sort of anti-slash. Or something. Which is silly of me, but there it is. While liking the bonding aspect of pregnancy -is- a kink and remains slash so I'm like "okay, there you go then" :>

i think i am still not on topic *g*

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

okay, if you say yourself that you might have been putting people on the spot, then that is bad, but it´s good that you saw it yourself and seem to regret the aggressiveness.

and i also think that mpreg is relevant as a bonding aspect, as spare_change seems to have explained to you --- as it is indeed with het couples, if used as a device in a love-story (note: not rl either).

i am too wrung out today to go into this in depth and apologize for first letting you wait and then letting you down *g* but for me the question would be this:

if you like mpreg, do you want to have children of your own? have you already been pregnant? would you like to bear a child yourself or rather have your partner bear it? do you feel a relationship is not complete until it has produced new life? and so on ...

i would treat it like a "normal" het-couple´s child-wish in that case, but as with your preference for passion-and-intensity instead of flowery language, it can be explained. i even think kinks like shotaken can be explained and need not remain a mystery along the lines of "i would never do this in rl but ...". similar questions can always be asked: what is your family status, are you in a relationship with an older or younger member of the same or opposite sex, are you happy with it, do you have children, do you want to have children --- those are rather boring and obvious, but then you have to go on to more detailed questions. or do a quizilla test! ;P

i am convinced that basically all of us are able to state why they like certain things. and many should be perceptive and intelligent enough to look those reasons in the eye. *g*