~~ wanking informatics 101 (heh)
Nov. 26th, 2003 09:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaSo I kind of randomly stumbled upon a Q&A page about boys masturbating together (all informative-like), and this reminded me of my continuous problem with the sort of uninformed way sexuality issues get treated in slash-fic. I mean, even the ones that aren't about "coming out" in any way, shape or form (certainly most of mine have nothing to do with it), aren't really realistic as far as sexual behavior of teenage males goes.
The reason I bring this up isn't because I'm feeling self-righteous or anything, but because I find "normal" teenage boy behavior to be kind of... well... sexy in its obliviousness. I mean, they wank alone and they think it's okay to wank together and to me, that's just beautiful. Because it really seems (speaking as someone who's made a small hobby of reading autobiographical sexual-history stories) that a rather large number of self-identified "heterosexual" boys ages 12-19 experiment an awful lot with each other. I don't base this on any one website or book-- I've just come across personal stories of this nature over and over and over again.
And oh, there's even a diagram involved :>
My observation would generally be that most of these boys "like" girls, but they have a -lot- of sexual energy and they still generally hang out with other guys, and a sort of "you do me, I do you" masturbatory philosophy isn't that uncommon between friends or even siblings. Clearly, this isn't a scientific observation by any means, but I think that it's interesting to note that the word "gay" is very very far from all these discussions. Generally it seems like all activity stops once things become "too gay" and some boundary gets crossed-- even if both the boys -want- that boundary crossed. Like, a handjob might be a casual friendly thing while a blowjob is more easily seen as crossing that line. I just think this ambiguity is fascinating, and worth working into adolescent male/male romance fics.
I've read accounts of a lot of boys who fantasize about masturbating with their friends, who specifically -want- to and would go out of their way to do it, without any romance or generalized notion of attraction registering (though of course whether they'd admit to it is another question). I think in a way, teenage romance between boys who self-identify as "normal" is unlikely to be... straightforward. Like, they may hang out together and "experiment" and take care of each other's "problem" but possibly it'd take awhile before they're willing to admit this is outside of the realm of socially acceptable for straight males (given that the relationship survives past the blowjob obstacle or whatever).
I think "acting like a boy" (in a fic) goes beyond whether or not that particular fic addresses the actual "issue" of coming out to themselves or others. I think one's sexual identity and behavior patterns are something that develop across time, and the point of realization and acceptance is only that-- a point on a broad plane that comprises a boy's growing up.
To me, it's fascinating to consider the age-old practice of sex initiation as a coming of age ritual, as it applies to slash fic, as well. There you have the slightly older boy show the younger boy the ropes-- or, if no older boy is available, you could easily have two friends lend each other a hand, so to speak.
A lot of slash fics written about teenage boys have it be either some sort of gradually building (romantic) love relationship after some series of events that draw the boys closer, or some Big Bang Theory where the POV character suddenly realizes some strong new attraction (either lust or love). In either case, it's a Big Deal and it plunges the boys down the road which has to end either in Doom (break-up) or the Bedroom (yeay, penetrative sex!). If one considers it, it seems more likely to be a casual by-product of either friendship (which is actually what results from prolonged exposure, generally) or wide-ranging hormones.
I mean, when one is 15-16 and a boy, it's not exactly a momentous revelation to get turned on by any hint of sex in any sort of package. And sometimes all one really has to do is -look- for that hint of sex (see Xander and that oft-quoted bit about the linoleum). It would seem that a new attraction doesn't necessitate (and in fact, is rather unlikely to necessitate) a bout of soul-searching, so l think that most fics have the boys take their wandering eyes too seriously. While admittedly this experimentation is something that goes on between friends rather than enemies, it's also not that much of a stretch to imagine it being a part of wrestling (ie, fighting) or some sort of struggle. I don't think the kissing is likely to occur before the humping, let's just put it that way.
The site that had the Q&A page also has a page addressing the boys' apparent confusion and concern over their possible homosexuality, so clearly angst of this nature exists (and, I'm sure, in large quantities). However, it seems to be like any other sort of nagging guilt and paranoia-- one does what feels good anyway and tries not to think about it as much as one possibly can. Certainly, I don't imagine most teenage boys would -brood- on it unless they're just depressive for other reasons or are in a very homophobic environment, which a boarding school both is and isn't. I mean, it isn't because it seems so much homosexual behavior goes -on-, but the trick is-- it's not seen as "homosexual". Conversely, actual "homosexuality" gets bashed left and right, I'd guess. So yeah.
This kind of grey area you have in places where a lot of boys spend a lot of time together while they're growing up applies to slash much more than "gay fiction" or any sort of portrayal of actual gay males. I mean, if one's "really gay", often enough one knows one's gay from the get-go, and this whole exploration thing would probably just scare them off (I can definitely see cautiousness based on fear of being found out) rather than make them horny and willing. While some people do lean more one way or another after puberty, it is still a different process, it seems. In slash, we're dealing with fuzzy boundaries and with boys who have had at least some signs of heterosexual behavior, so it's safe enough to play with them like they're within the majority range. Okay, I shouldn't say "safe". What I mean is, it's fun to mess with their horny little minds. :D
The reason I bring this up isn't because I'm feeling self-righteous or anything, but because I find "normal" teenage boy behavior to be kind of... well... sexy in its obliviousness. I mean, they wank alone and they think it's okay to wank together and to me, that's just beautiful. Because it really seems (speaking as someone who's made a small hobby of reading autobiographical sexual-history stories) that a rather large number of self-identified "heterosexual" boys ages 12-19 experiment an awful lot with each other. I don't base this on any one website or book-- I've just come across personal stories of this nature over and over and over again.
And oh, there's even a diagram involved :>
My observation would generally be that most of these boys "like" girls, but they have a -lot- of sexual energy and they still generally hang out with other guys, and a sort of "you do me, I do you" masturbatory philosophy isn't that uncommon between friends or even siblings. Clearly, this isn't a scientific observation by any means, but I think that it's interesting to note that the word "gay" is very very far from all these discussions. Generally it seems like all activity stops once things become "too gay" and some boundary gets crossed-- even if both the boys -want- that boundary crossed. Like, a handjob might be a casual friendly thing while a blowjob is more easily seen as crossing that line. I just think this ambiguity is fascinating, and worth working into adolescent male/male romance fics.
I've read accounts of a lot of boys who fantasize about masturbating with their friends, who specifically -want- to and would go out of their way to do it, without any romance or generalized notion of attraction registering (though of course whether they'd admit to it is another question). I think in a way, teenage romance between boys who self-identify as "normal" is unlikely to be... straightforward. Like, they may hang out together and "experiment" and take care of each other's "problem" but possibly it'd take awhile before they're willing to admit this is outside of the realm of socially acceptable for straight males (given that the relationship survives past the blowjob obstacle or whatever).
I think "acting like a boy" (in a fic) goes beyond whether or not that particular fic addresses the actual "issue" of coming out to themselves or others. I think one's sexual identity and behavior patterns are something that develop across time, and the point of realization and acceptance is only that-- a point on a broad plane that comprises a boy's growing up.
To me, it's fascinating to consider the age-old practice of sex initiation as a coming of age ritual, as it applies to slash fic, as well. There you have the slightly older boy show the younger boy the ropes-- or, if no older boy is available, you could easily have two friends lend each other a hand, so to speak.
A lot of slash fics written about teenage boys have it be either some sort of gradually building (romantic) love relationship after some series of events that draw the boys closer, or some Big Bang Theory where the POV character suddenly realizes some strong new attraction (either lust or love). In either case, it's a Big Deal and it plunges the boys down the road which has to end either in Doom (break-up) or the Bedroom (yeay, penetrative sex!). If one considers it, it seems more likely to be a casual by-product of either friendship (which is actually what results from prolonged exposure, generally) or wide-ranging hormones.
I mean, when one is 15-16 and a boy, it's not exactly a momentous revelation to get turned on by any hint of sex in any sort of package. And sometimes all one really has to do is -look- for that hint of sex (see Xander and that oft-quoted bit about the linoleum). It would seem that a new attraction doesn't necessitate (and in fact, is rather unlikely to necessitate) a bout of soul-searching, so l think that most fics have the boys take their wandering eyes too seriously. While admittedly this experimentation is something that goes on between friends rather than enemies, it's also not that much of a stretch to imagine it being a part of wrestling (ie, fighting) or some sort of struggle. I don't think the kissing is likely to occur before the humping, let's just put it that way.
The site that had the Q&A page also has a page addressing the boys' apparent confusion and concern over their possible homosexuality, so clearly angst of this nature exists (and, I'm sure, in large quantities). However, it seems to be like any other sort of nagging guilt and paranoia-- one does what feels good anyway and tries not to think about it as much as one possibly can. Certainly, I don't imagine most teenage boys would -brood- on it unless they're just depressive for other reasons or are in a very homophobic environment, which a boarding school both is and isn't. I mean, it isn't because it seems so much homosexual behavior goes -on-, but the trick is-- it's not seen as "homosexual". Conversely, actual "homosexuality" gets bashed left and right, I'd guess. So yeah.
This kind of grey area you have in places where a lot of boys spend a lot of time together while they're growing up applies to slash much more than "gay fiction" or any sort of portrayal of actual gay males. I mean, if one's "really gay", often enough one knows one's gay from the get-go, and this whole exploration thing would probably just scare them off (I can definitely see cautiousness based on fear of being found out) rather than make them horny and willing. While some people do lean more one way or another after puberty, it is still a different process, it seems. In slash, we're dealing with fuzzy boundaries and with boys who have had at least some signs of heterosexual behavior, so it's safe enough to play with them like they're within the majority range. Okay, I shouldn't say "safe". What I mean is, it's fun to mess with their horny little minds. :D
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re: o...k...
Date: 2006-10-31 09:20 am (UTC)Also, you're quite wrong if you think much "work" went into this post; at most it was a half-hour's casual surfing & I do type fast-- generally I don't write lj entries as if they were college papers, y'know. I have absolutely no idea where you'd get the impression I thought masturbation was wrong (really, I was trying to celebrate/encourage writing about it-- and -have- written about it happily many many times). I'm not sure whether I even touched upon whether masturbation is frowned upon-- and well, it really depends by whom, I guess, but even if I said it was, it would still be pretty true (though I don't see how observing questionable social trends or traditions is offensive or implies anything about my own values or opinions). And I would say that any two boys masturbating together is -sexual-, whether or not it's -homosexual-, and therefore conducive to slash fanfic, which was my actual inspiration & subject. I'm not sure how aware you are of slash, but that's my main concern here-- fiction, though realistic fiction inspired by actual male tendencies. Slash blurs the line between 'straight', 'bi' & 'gay', regardless.
I wasn't trying to write some sort of academic treatise; I'm not sure how you found this old post, but I can only imagine the link you found was out of context-- unless you found this through google. I don't know. I do know this was written for a certain audience [my friends' list on livejournal, the site you're on] and people unfamiliar with slash aren't part of that intended audience, so.
but who's right is it to study thier personal behaviour as if they were animals
...I find this comment confusing, if overly provocative. People's behavior is studied routinely by social scientists these days-- well, in some sense it's always been a respected study, though called differently. Sociologists, anthropologists, psychologists-- that sort of thing. It's not a moral issue and I'd never mean to phrase it as relating to such. I'm not judging the actual practices of whatever group of boys in question-- people can do whatever they want, and I just have a particular interest in the ambiguously, 'borderline' sexual behavior between sexually confused teenage boys. Not everyone knows who they are at that age-- lines get smudged and blur, boundaries get crossed, etc. I personally find that interesting, yes, but it's not like I come to people's homes & watch them in their bedrooms, so I'm not sure what you're finding so problematic.
Also, calling it 'an act of homosexualism' seems a bit outdated.