~~ a question of kink.
Oct. 13th, 2003 04:34 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaA part of me is like... wah. You can't make this entry, 'cause it's not interesting to anyone but you. And then, that just sounds stuffy. And, that's for moose...s. Moose? The plural of "moose".
Nevermind, I don't get it either.
So like, I was so certain I like non-con fics. I mean, I kept telling myself, but no, I like it in theory. I do. No. Really. I feel uncool if I don't. I don't know why. Just. I do.
And then it's like-- I'm so naive. I just didn't realize it, but (yes, I didn't realize how naive I was). If definition of non-con = description of sex where either of parties is having no fun whatsoever and is in fact being psychologically scarred.... Er. No. And then it hit me: that is (something like) the definition of. Well. Rape. Duh. (Cue lightbulb!)
If definition of non-con = description of sex where one party starts off having no fun and then is persuaded to by the sheer horny greatness of the other party, then..... Yes. I find it hot. On the other hand, that's not non-con, strangely enough.
Now it occurs to me that the definition of non-con (i.e., rape) has been often debated in court, too, hasn't it. People have said, "well, I did orgasm and enjoy myself and yell YESYESTAKEMENOW but I DIDN'T WANT TO thus it was rape". So maybe that's why semi-con stories get labelled non-con (then again, one very rarely labels stories "includes consent issues" or "questionably rape" because either the writer thinks they're writing "that non-con kink thing" or not, apparently).
I've been confused about the definitions because I -thought- I said I enjoyed (some) non-con (then again, I only enjoy "some" with everything) for a reason. There is this one non-con fic that I absolutely -adore- and think is just unbearably hot and it's made me believe in non-conness forever. It's just. Brilliant. Brilliantly Hot. Beautiful. Gorgeous. YES. It's... not an HP fic, actually. It's `Shades of Gray', a Methos/Kronos/Cassandra & D/M Highlander fic by Mairead Triste. This fic is so hot it got me into the fandom, got me to read a bunch of other Highlander fics by a bunch of other authors; it was the other thing besides the (really hot!) Highlander vids that really hooked me but good. So you can see why I thought I had a reason for saying I like non-con (and this fic is -really- violent and -really- all-out forced-sex all over... sort of).
But. Then again, I keep... not liking the non-con in the HP fandom. I keep thinking... okay, I'm just waiting for the right one. But no. My own non-con fics didn't work for me on a sexeh level. Sara's `Control' doesn't work for me (though it's not really non-con but it approaches these issues anyway), Shalott's `Weather of the Heart' series doesn't work for me, Amanuensis's `And Just Plain Wrong'... ditto. So. Weird, huh. Then I realized that even though on the surface, `Shades of Gray' is non-con as non-con can be... it's... different. It's special. It's got... passion. It convinces me (!! eureka!!). Most non-con just counts on "well, it's your kink too" and doesn't bother to set up the characters as to -why- they're into this against their will (if they are! but that's the most common scenario). Very very rarely does non-con work to set up the situation to be sexy. Of course, rarely does any fic work for its own scenario. Damn, I have to refrain from saying most things suck now. Because uh. That's not nice.
I just realized that there's a world of difference between the "sort" of rape you have when you have... I dunno... aphrodisiacs, heavy-handed seduction, severe aggressiveness, dominance/submission-- and just plain treating someone as an object to use and abuse and discard with nothing to make it a "crime of passion" (the `passion' being the operative word here rather than the `crime').
Like, maybe there's "first-or-second-degree-type rape" in fics and "manslaughter-type rape", where the former is your basic non-con and the latter is... er... my idea of hot non-con, also sometimes known as "date-rape".
A random definition of "date-rape" off of google (what great research skillz I have!) says, "Acquaintance or Date Rape means being forced or pressured into having sex by someone you know-- against your will, without having your consent." But! It seems to me that "forced" and "pressured" correspond to two entiiiiirely different "types" of fic, even if you can say they're equivalent for legal purposes.
Another interesting word to use here is "coerced"-- Merriam-Webster online says "coerce" means:
1 : to restrain or dominate by force
2 : to compel to an act or choice
3 : to bring about by force or threat
The word that most interests me -there- is "compel", so I looked it up:
1 : to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly
2 : to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure
3 archaic : to drive together
So what -I'm- interested in reading in terms of non-con fic (as far as being able to enjoy it rather than be disturbed) is some version of "coerced 2a"-- `coerced' in the sense of `urge irresistibly'. If something is "impossible to resist" (`irresistible' is a simple word with just one meaning, apparently), then it's hard to say whether that's because you're prevented from resisting or you don't -want- to resist. The nature of something being `irresistible' is that it's a totality. There's almost no way to -tell- what came first-- that weakness in you that made you susceptible to the stimulant or the strength of the stimulation, so to speak.
Another interesting corollary (only relevant to me) is that one of the things that makes a "good non-con" fic to me (i.e., one I can enjoy) is that the party being dominated has to resist. If they don't resist for whatever reason, the question of the urge being irresistible becomes moot. One can't be ravished if one is limply lying in their captor's hands, for instance, to get all 19th-century about this. In my own imagination, it works if the captive tries to resist but can't because it's irresistible (whatever that means). That ties in (I think) with my obsessive need for romance and desire to always empathize with the characters. I can really empathize with this whole being irresistible thing, 'cause that's basically the story of my life. One sudden addiction/craving after another~:)
Hee! Yeah, beneath this frumpy exterior beats the heart of a wildwoman. Or... something -.-
Irresistibility is really a classic trope of romance plots through the ages. I mean, if you really broke it down, there's a lot of semi-con and non-con elements in 18th and 19th century (and older, naturally... take Zeus and his conquests) romance ideals. The huge manly man "takes" the fainting delicate woman across his heavily muscled (manly) shoulder and carries her off to be... er... plundered :D :D
"Oh no!!" she squeals. "Let me be, scurrilous rogue! I am a -Lady-! You cannot do this to me! HEEEEELPPP!!"
And of course, he laughs heartily and slaps her on the behind. "Ahaha, that's a good one, -wench-!! No one can hear you, here in the wild Highlands! You're -mine- and you will taste my seed before you'll have your supper tonight, make no mistake!"
"Oh mercy!! MERCY!! How can you be so cruel!? So heartless?! Where are my -shoes-?!?! You horrid -beast-! You will -pay- for this atrocity!! OWWWW!"
He gags her, feeling up her legs and pinching her nipples, and of course she squirms and gets all hot and bothered. "Like that, do you, you little hussy? Ach, I knew you'd come around! I know a good piece of arse when I see one!"
She keeps trying to hit his back (weakly) with her (bound) fists, but of course it's to no avail. Naturally, he throws her down roughly on the cave floor and growls, ripping off his breeches and she's glad she's gagged 'cause of course otherwise she'd have drooled, since clearly he's a fine specimen of (ahem!) manhood.
Of course, after they really get going (he's driving manfully into her yielding heat!! ehehehe), he gets all nice and considerate and wants her to orgasm too ('cause aaayyyyy, he -knows how to please a woman-!! it's a matter of Highland -pride-, don't you know). Eventually he's down to kissing behind her ear deliriously and calling her "love" while drooling down her shoulder. Awwww, it's twue wuv.
Ahahahahah. And now that I've embarrassed myself utterly.... I'll just shut up now -.-
~~~
EDIT - omg, I adore![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nacey's art! Wah! And she draws (really sweet) Harry/Hermione! This is so... wrong! And yet! So pretty (especially this last one, with Harry&Hermione&Draco in it. Ack.)! And naturally, she's a professional fantasy artist. Duh. Who draws fairies! And Delirium..!..!..!!1 And eeeeeeee, two Lunas!!1 >:O
Nevermind, I don't get it either.
So like, I was so certain I like non-con fics. I mean, I kept telling myself, but no, I like it in theory. I do. No. Really. I feel uncool if I don't. I don't know why. Just. I do.
And then it's like-- I'm so naive. I just didn't realize it, but (yes, I didn't realize how naive I was). If definition of non-con = description of sex where either of parties is having no fun whatsoever and is in fact being psychologically scarred.... Er. No. And then it hit me: that is (something like) the definition of. Well. Rape. Duh. (Cue lightbulb!)
If definition of non-con = description of sex where one party starts off having no fun and then is persuaded to by the sheer horny greatness of the other party, then..... Yes. I find it hot. On the other hand, that's not non-con, strangely enough.
Now it occurs to me that the definition of non-con (i.e., rape) has been often debated in court, too, hasn't it. People have said, "well, I did orgasm and enjoy myself and yell YESYESTAKEMENOW but I DIDN'T WANT TO thus it was rape". So maybe that's why semi-con stories get labelled non-con (then again, one very rarely labels stories "includes consent issues" or "questionably rape" because either the writer thinks they're writing "that non-con kink thing" or not, apparently).
I've been confused about the definitions because I -thought- I said I enjoyed (some) non-con (then again, I only enjoy "some" with everything) for a reason. There is this one non-con fic that I absolutely -adore- and think is just unbearably hot and it's made me believe in non-conness forever. It's just. Brilliant. Brilliantly Hot. Beautiful. Gorgeous. YES. It's... not an HP fic, actually. It's `Shades of Gray', a Methos/Kronos/Cassandra & D/M Highlander fic by Mairead Triste. This fic is so hot it got me into the fandom, got me to read a bunch of other Highlander fics by a bunch of other authors; it was the other thing besides the (really hot!) Highlander vids that really hooked me but good. So you can see why I thought I had a reason for saying I like non-con (and this fic is -really- violent and -really- all-out forced-sex all over... sort of).
But. Then again, I keep... not liking the non-con in the HP fandom. I keep thinking... okay, I'm just waiting for the right one. But no. My own non-con fics didn't work for me on a sexeh level. Sara's `Control' doesn't work for me (though it's not really non-con but it approaches these issues anyway), Shalott's `Weather of the Heart' series doesn't work for me, Amanuensis's `And Just Plain Wrong'... ditto. So. Weird, huh. Then I realized that even though on the surface, `Shades of Gray' is non-con as non-con can be... it's... different. It's special. It's got... passion. It convinces me (!! eureka!!). Most non-con just counts on "well, it's your kink too" and doesn't bother to set up the characters as to -why- they're into this against their will (if they are! but that's the most common scenario). Very very rarely does non-con work to set up the situation to be sexy. Of course, rarely does any fic work for its own scenario. Damn, I have to refrain from saying most things suck now. Because uh. That's not nice.
I just realized that there's a world of difference between the "sort" of rape you have when you have... I dunno... aphrodisiacs, heavy-handed seduction, severe aggressiveness, dominance/submission-- and just plain treating someone as an object to use and abuse and discard with nothing to make it a "crime of passion" (the `passion' being the operative word here rather than the `crime').
Like, maybe there's "first-or-second-degree-type rape" in fics and "manslaughter-type rape", where the former is your basic non-con and the latter is... er... my idea of hot non-con, also sometimes known as "date-rape".
A random definition of "date-rape" off of google (what great research skillz I have!) says, "Acquaintance or Date Rape means being forced or pressured into having sex by someone you know-- against your will, without having your consent." But! It seems to me that "forced" and "pressured" correspond to two entiiiiirely different "types" of fic, even if you can say they're equivalent for legal purposes.
Another interesting word to use here is "coerced"-- Merriam-Webster online says "coerce" means:
1 : to restrain or dominate by force
2 : to compel to an act or choice
3 : to bring about by force or threat
The word that most interests me -there- is "compel", so I looked it up:
1 : to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly
2 : to cause to do or occur by overwhelming pressure
3 archaic : to drive together
So what -I'm- interested in reading in terms of non-con fic (as far as being able to enjoy it rather than be disturbed) is some version of "coerced 2a"-- `coerced' in the sense of `urge irresistibly'. If something is "impossible to resist" (`irresistible' is a simple word with just one meaning, apparently), then it's hard to say whether that's because you're prevented from resisting or you don't -want- to resist. The nature of something being `irresistible' is that it's a totality. There's almost no way to -tell- what came first-- that weakness in you that made you susceptible to the stimulant or the strength of the stimulation, so to speak.
Another interesting corollary (only relevant to me) is that one of the things that makes a "good non-con" fic to me (i.e., one I can enjoy) is that the party being dominated has to resist. If they don't resist for whatever reason, the question of the urge being irresistible becomes moot. One can't be ravished if one is limply lying in their captor's hands, for instance, to get all 19th-century about this. In my own imagination, it works if the captive tries to resist but can't because it's irresistible (whatever that means). That ties in (I think) with my obsessive need for romance and desire to always empathize with the characters. I can really empathize with this whole being irresistible thing, 'cause that's basically the story of my life. One sudden addiction/craving after another~:)
Hee! Yeah, beneath this frumpy exterior beats the heart of a wildwoman. Or... something -.-
Irresistibility is really a classic trope of romance plots through the ages. I mean, if you really broke it down, there's a lot of semi-con and non-con elements in 18th and 19th century (and older, naturally... take Zeus and his conquests) romance ideals. The huge manly man "takes" the fainting delicate woman across his heavily muscled (manly) shoulder and carries her off to be... er... plundered :D :D
"Oh no!!" she squeals. "Let me be, scurrilous rogue! I am a -Lady-! You cannot do this to me! HEEEEELPPP!!"
And of course, he laughs heartily and slaps her on the behind. "Ahaha, that's a good one, -wench-!! No one can hear you, here in the wild Highlands! You're -mine- and you will taste my seed before you'll have your supper tonight, make no mistake!"
"Oh mercy!! MERCY!! How can you be so cruel!? So heartless?! Where are my -shoes-?!?! You horrid -beast-! You will -pay- for this atrocity!! OWWWW!"
He gags her, feeling up her legs and pinching her nipples, and of course she squirms and gets all hot and bothered. "Like that, do you, you little hussy? Ach, I knew you'd come around! I know a good piece of arse when I see one!"
She keeps trying to hit his back (weakly) with her (bound) fists, but of course it's to no avail. Naturally, he throws her down roughly on the cave floor and growls, ripping off his breeches and she's glad she's gagged 'cause of course otherwise she'd have drooled, since clearly he's a fine specimen of (ahem!) manhood.
Of course, after they really get going (he's driving manfully into her yielding heat!! ehehehe), he gets all nice and considerate and wants her to orgasm too ('cause aaayyyyy, he -knows how to please a woman-!! it's a matter of Highland -pride-, don't you know). Eventually he's down to kissing behind her ear deliriously and calling her "love" while drooling down her shoulder. Awwww, it's twue wuv.
Ahahahahah. And now that I've embarrassed myself utterly.... I'll just shut up now -.-
~~~
EDIT - omg, I adore
nacey's art! Wah! And she draws (really sweet) Harry/Hermione! This is so... wrong! And yet! So pretty (especially this last one, with Harry&Hermione&Draco in it. Ack.)! And naturally, she's a professional fantasy artist. Duh. Who draws fairies! And Delirium..!..!..!!1 And eeeeeeee, two Lunas!!1 >:O
fandom nomenclature
Date: 2003-10-13 11:40 pm (UTC)My 2 cents: "noncon" doesn't have the same jarring connotation as a word that "rape" does. Rape is 100% awful and unsexy and pain and real life horror. Noncon can be that 1980's bad romance ravishment (or whatever else) *fantasy* that one can take a sinful, guilty pleasure in.
Alice :D
(who 1st started reading HP fic due to a link from fannish butterfly's "slash without consent" page.)
Re: fandom nomenclature
Date: 2003-10-13 11:48 pm (UTC)Dude. I am -itching- to just. Offer you a code. On a plate. With a ribbon. Heh.
But no, livejournal is evil, I know this~:)
It's just that I find that lots of/most non-con fic -isn't- rape-fic anyway, yet some of it is. They're all coming from different angles, really. Like
Thanks for the link, btw :D :D