*defends Neville against her will*
Oct. 5th, 2003 04:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaNeedless to be said, I'm all about the Draco-love and have virtually zero love or interest in Neville. I wouldn't even be talking about him if not for Maya's post.... heh. So yes, I don't really like Neville, but the argument that he's clearly sucky because the Gryffindors who live with him and observe him don't seem to like him either (vs. Draco, who -is- liked by his peers) just bugs me. Lots of people are unliked who deserve to be and liked even though they don't deserve to be. Popularity is a tricksy thing. I mean... certain traits will always be popular (outrageousness, prettiness, wealth, leadership, rebelliousness, sheer attitude) and certain other traits will always be not-so-popular (quietness, timidness, awkwardness, unattractiveness, weirdness, ineptness).
I've never found that people judge others (even others whom they know and live with) with any sort of kindness or accuracy or perhaps any attempt at balance. I admit JKR isn't doing very well at making anyone find Neville likeable (including me), but I don't know about trusting his `friends' on their opinion of him. More than anything, he's just... not very socially versed. Draco is. Even Harry is, though uh... his Boy Who Lived status has more to do with that than his sparkling social-butterfly personality. I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion of -Harry- in canon, either... maybe Hermione, but. Eh. His friends are very biased and limited, in their different ways.
JKR seems to keep writing characters who're very defined by a specific set of biases. Like, their Houses don't even need to define them 'cause they're already so specialized in terms of personality.
No real person is really as Neville-like as Neville is, just as I don't think there's anyone as "Draco-like" as Draco's supposed to be. But then I tend to go easy on people.
Also I'm waaayy more of a mix of Neville and Luna than anything :/ Heh. With flashes of Hermione. Might grow up to be Remus-like. hee.
But yeah, he's in the background, not very well known even by "friends", rather awkward and cursed with foot-in-mouth disease, getting everything wrong half the time when it -counts-, etc. I don't want anyone's pity but then I don't want most people's -attention-, either (that's good, 'cause I really almost never get it, and bitterness is bad for one's constitution).
Draco's and Neville's problems are different. Draco likes attention, that's what makes him feel better. Pity is "bad" attention, it's not really -liking-, and Draco wants to be liked, I think, on his terms. I see no evidence that Neville wants to be liked, or wants pity-- he's just clueless and inept at navigating social situations. He's ... impaired. I mean really. He's got a problem, I think, with his memory or magical ability... something. Draco, on the other hand, is perfectly normal (as far as that goes).
In terms of my own experience.... even though people who got to really know me (rather than observe me) tend to like me... in general, my acquaintances don't hold me in any great esteem, I think, and most likely think I'm a dork. People who know -of- me through my deeds and reputation think I'm worse than a dork, probably a hopeless loser as well. And what Neville has are acquaintances more than friends. They don't really know his history, his situation, any real background except what they find out from sources other than him. Neville doesn't volunteer information. He's a bit like Luna in that way.
Actually... in terms of canon, I reckon I wouldn't have gone for either Draco -or- Neville. They're both dorks without -background-, and what I need most of all is an emotional center to identify with. I adore Harry in the books most of all because I know how he feels, I identify with him-- when I read them, I -am- him. Looked at from the outside, without kindness, most characters (Draco, Harry, Neville, Sirius) would turn me off. I don't -know- Neville. He doesn't seem worth knowing as far as he's portrayed, but any sort of preference for Draco is largely because of his potential, too. The potential I see in him, the places I wish he would go, the things his childish passion makes me believe he's capable of feeling. Talking about potential is a tricky thing, though. You either see it or you don't, and apparently, for Neville, JKR sees it and for Draco she doesn't, and that's perfectly defensible because potential in terms of its realization has to do with plot, with actual -events- that catalyze one aspect of one's personality or another.
I really don't emotionally "get" (though I understand) people who really go out of their way to force personalities that really aren't there onto 2-dimensional characters in fiction. I tend to take fiction "as is", and rarely do I bother hating characters (while I do like a number, hate or disgust seems... too much effort, not -pleasant-). For instance, all the people who elevate the Malfoys and the Slytherins onto some sort of higher plateau of coolness while they jeer and point at the Gryffindors. I mean, it seems rather unhealthy to me.
To me, Lucius sucks greasy donkey-balls no matter how many facts about him you can unearth, because he's quite obviously a great melodramatic dorkus as presented. So is Draco (a melodramatic dorkus), but at least he's not -crusty- yet. Eeeurgh, crusty. Harry is a difficult character whom I love because I understand. Luna and Remus and Hermione I just make that leap of faith and project myself onto a bit. Draco is someone I love because of having seen -so- many fics where his potential is worked out (but I don't love fanon!Draco... I just -notice- canon!Draco more because of fanon!Draco-- it gives canon!Draco a sort of... new life).
But back to Neville.... Taken on his own merits, Neville is just... hard to get any sort of grip on except to say he's that disturbing runny-nose plump boy sitting at the back of class and pretending he's one of "them" (or "us", as the case many be). Draco/Neville makes zero sense to me in -any- universe (thus I can't make myself read `Lust Over Pendle' no matter how often everyone says it's good), because Draco -eats- boys like Neville for breakfast. With ketchup. You can only write them together outside of school, and I don't dig grown-up!Draco, so forget him with Neville, heh. Draco is like the polar opposite of Neville on the social hierarchy-- bully and bullied. Frog and snake. Heh. Do snakes eat frogs? Well, it's not the other way around, that's for sure.
Of course, must give nod to OoTP, New And Improved Neville. So he's like Clark Kent, except not really, because no one saved the day, not even Harry. I actually see where JKR was trying to go with that, and you know... I like it. In theory. Dude... imagine it... we've probably all liked hero-stories like that if they were told from Neville's perspective (which is essential). No particular one comes to mind, but. It's -classic-. All Neville lacks is brilliance and a whole lot of zits before he becomes the Little Nerd Who Could. Yeah, that lack of brilliance is troubling. I think what's really missing is the fact that he's -not- the hero. If he was, he'd have to grow up, he'd be forced to shape up, to lose the fat, to rise to meet the challenge. Classic tale, like I said-- he comes back, smarter and leaner and with an attitude after an interlude in the Forest with his Mentor,YodaDumbledore (?), to save the day. We've all seen it.
Of course most people don't like him. He's everything most of us would be mortified to be, and if we -are-, we're certainly not going to advertise it. So I'm telling y'all right now, I'm a lot like Neville :D :D Or rather... a lot of people think I'm like Neville, and it's public opinion that counts, eh?
Neville has Potential, though. He has to prove himself. If he turns out to be Important-- no, no one will like him anyway. He'll still be the boy with the runny nose and the shorts peeking from above his trousers and the embarrassing tendency to act like he actually -knows- you. Neville Sucks.
But if he does, so does everyone else, man; depending on whom you ask, naturally.
They just do it in a more socially-acceptable way, nein? And hey, at least someone -cares- about the others. That's the important thing, right? At least they -care-. No one really cares about Neville, and why should they?
EDIT - This post by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nostrademons seems to apply to people's reactions to Neville, too. Especially in the way that he gets written off as "annoying"... and how this relates to the general way it's okay to treat people without regard if they're considered annoying. Not mean, not having an "attitude"-- that can be attractive. But being pathetic & annoying? Who forgives that? Also, this reminds me that a lot of people who dislike -Draco- just find him an annoying little git, not worth attention. Funny how that goes.
~~
EDIT - Unrelatedly,nostrademons's thoughts about the Prophecy have been the first thing to have made sense to me about it in all this time. Yes, I do think it's quite fitting to think of it as a self-fulfilling prophecy, a red herring that Dumbledore is using because Voldemort believes it and it's better for Harry this way. Inventing the future. The magic of belief itself. Yes.
I've never found that people judge others (even others whom they know and live with) with any sort of kindness or accuracy or perhaps any attempt at balance. I admit JKR isn't doing very well at making anyone find Neville likeable (including me), but I don't know about trusting his `friends' on their opinion of him. More than anything, he's just... not very socially versed. Draco is. Even Harry is, though uh... his Boy Who Lived status has more to do with that than his sparkling social-butterfly personality. I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion of -Harry- in canon, either... maybe Hermione, but. Eh. His friends are very biased and limited, in their different ways.
JKR seems to keep writing characters who're very defined by a specific set of biases. Like, their Houses don't even need to define them 'cause they're already so specialized in terms of personality.
No real person is really as Neville-like as Neville is, just as I don't think there's anyone as "Draco-like" as Draco's supposed to be. But then I tend to go easy on people.
Also I'm waaayy more of a mix of Neville and Luna than anything :/ Heh. With flashes of Hermione. Might grow up to be Remus-like. hee.
But yeah, he's in the background, not very well known even by "friends", rather awkward and cursed with foot-in-mouth disease, getting everything wrong half the time when it -counts-, etc. I don't want anyone's pity but then I don't want most people's -attention-, either (that's good, 'cause I really almost never get it, and bitterness is bad for one's constitution).
Draco's and Neville's problems are different. Draco likes attention, that's what makes him feel better. Pity is "bad" attention, it's not really -liking-, and Draco wants to be liked, I think, on his terms. I see no evidence that Neville wants to be liked, or wants pity-- he's just clueless and inept at navigating social situations. He's ... impaired. I mean really. He's got a problem, I think, with his memory or magical ability... something. Draco, on the other hand, is perfectly normal (as far as that goes).
In terms of my own experience.... even though people who got to really know me (rather than observe me) tend to like me... in general, my acquaintances don't hold me in any great esteem, I think, and most likely think I'm a dork. People who know -of- me through my deeds and reputation think I'm worse than a dork, probably a hopeless loser as well. And what Neville has are acquaintances more than friends. They don't really know his history, his situation, any real background except what they find out from sources other than him. Neville doesn't volunteer information. He's a bit like Luna in that way.
Actually... in terms of canon, I reckon I wouldn't have gone for either Draco -or- Neville. They're both dorks without -background-, and what I need most of all is an emotional center to identify with. I adore Harry in the books most of all because I know how he feels, I identify with him-- when I read them, I -am- him. Looked at from the outside, without kindness, most characters (Draco, Harry, Neville, Sirius) would turn me off. I don't -know- Neville. He doesn't seem worth knowing as far as he's portrayed, but any sort of preference for Draco is largely because of his potential, too. The potential I see in him, the places I wish he would go, the things his childish passion makes me believe he's capable of feeling. Talking about potential is a tricky thing, though. You either see it or you don't, and apparently, for Neville, JKR sees it and for Draco she doesn't, and that's perfectly defensible because potential in terms of its realization has to do with plot, with actual -events- that catalyze one aspect of one's personality or another.
I really don't emotionally "get" (though I understand) people who really go out of their way to force personalities that really aren't there onto 2-dimensional characters in fiction. I tend to take fiction "as is", and rarely do I bother hating characters (while I do like a number, hate or disgust seems... too much effort, not -pleasant-). For instance, all the people who elevate the Malfoys and the Slytherins onto some sort of higher plateau of coolness while they jeer and point at the Gryffindors. I mean, it seems rather unhealthy to me.
To me, Lucius sucks greasy donkey-balls no matter how many facts about him you can unearth, because he's quite obviously a great melodramatic dorkus as presented. So is Draco (a melodramatic dorkus), but at least he's not -crusty- yet. Eeeurgh, crusty. Harry is a difficult character whom I love because I understand. Luna and Remus and Hermione I just make that leap of faith and project myself onto a bit. Draco is someone I love because of having seen -so- many fics where his potential is worked out (but I don't love fanon!Draco... I just -notice- canon!Draco more because of fanon!Draco-- it gives canon!Draco a sort of... new life).
But back to Neville.... Taken on his own merits, Neville is just... hard to get any sort of grip on except to say he's that disturbing runny-nose plump boy sitting at the back of class and pretending he's one of "them" (or "us", as the case many be). Draco/Neville makes zero sense to me in -any- universe (thus I can't make myself read `Lust Over Pendle' no matter how often everyone says it's good), because Draco -eats- boys like Neville for breakfast. With ketchup. You can only write them together outside of school, and I don't dig grown-up!Draco, so forget him with Neville, heh. Draco is like the polar opposite of Neville on the social hierarchy-- bully and bullied. Frog and snake. Heh. Do snakes eat frogs? Well, it's not the other way around, that's for sure.
Of course, must give nod to OoTP, New And Improved Neville. So he's like Clark Kent, except not really, because no one saved the day, not even Harry. I actually see where JKR was trying to go with that, and you know... I like it. In theory. Dude... imagine it... we've probably all liked hero-stories like that if they were told from Neville's perspective (which is essential). No particular one comes to mind, but. It's -classic-. All Neville lacks is brilliance and a whole lot of zits before he becomes the Little Nerd Who Could. Yeah, that lack of brilliance is troubling. I think what's really missing is the fact that he's -not- the hero. If he was, he'd have to grow up, he'd be forced to shape up, to lose the fat, to rise to meet the challenge. Classic tale, like I said-- he comes back, smarter and leaner and with an attitude after an interlude in the Forest with his Mentor,
Of course most people don't like him. He's everything most of us would be mortified to be, and if we -are-, we're certainly not going to advertise it. So I'm telling y'all right now, I'm a lot like Neville :D :D Or rather... a lot of people think I'm like Neville, and it's public opinion that counts, eh?
Neville has Potential, though. He has to prove himself. If he turns out to be Important-- no, no one will like him anyway. He'll still be the boy with the runny nose and the shorts peeking from above his trousers and the embarrassing tendency to act like he actually -knows- you. Neville Sucks.
But if he does, so does everyone else, man; depending on whom you ask, naturally.
They just do it in a more socially-acceptable way, nein? And hey, at least someone -cares- about the others. That's the important thing, right? At least they -care-. No one really cares about Neville, and why should they?
EDIT - This post by
nostrademons seems to apply to people's reactions to Neville, too. Especially in the way that he gets written off as "annoying"... and how this relates to the general way it's okay to treat people without regard if they're considered annoying. Not mean, not having an "attitude"-- that can be attractive. But being pathetic & annoying? Who forgives that? Also, this reminds me that a lot of people who dislike -Draco- just find him an annoying little git, not worth attention. Funny how that goes. ~~
EDIT - Unrelatedly,
nostrademons's thoughts about the Prophecy have been the first thing to have made sense to me about it in all this time. Yes, I do think it's quite fitting to think of it as a self-fulfilling prophecy, a red herring that Dumbledore is using because Voldemort believes it and it's better for Harry this way. Inventing the future. The magic of belief itself. Yes.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-10-06 11:36 am (UTC)Hmmm. Like the poster who said 'Pansy rocks' for calling Neville a 'fat crybaby'? I'm sure that person thinks Sirius and James rock too, for calling Snape 'Snivellus' which, in terms of petty insults IS rather more clever.
I think I should probably just avoid future discussions of Neville's character because the level of hatred and vitriol makes me feel depressed. I know there's really no "Neville" and so nobody's truly being hurt by the comments, but it just seems so extreme. And I think I probably identify with Neville far too much -- in school I was a shy, underachiever who rarely had more than one or two close friends. Perhaps the insults cut a little too close to home. :-/
no subject
Date: 2003-10-06 12:48 pm (UTC)Like, at Nimbus there was this person at the Snape panel who started saying how she identifies with Snape because in High School, there were mean stupid people who picked on her who were totally just like Sirius and James, and now she'd just like to kill them.
That was a bit freaky.
Anyway, there's definitely a segment of the fandom who is obsessive and unhealthy about the whole Slytherin-power thing, and they're very certain who the Slytherins (and Lucius, and Draco) -are-, and it's like they have a personal stake in it. (Ahahah Yeah, I basically think they're insane, what can I say). There are also people who have a stake in saying what Neville is like, what the Gryffindors are like, as if they know, as if it would be Really Bad if they were different. Actually, there's not a lot of people like that.
But it also has to do with this identification process, with separating the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.
Eeep. I'm sorry if anything I sad about Neville upset you :/
I think mostly, people just don't care about him and resent being told they should. It's true, we just don't have any personality for him to like, except peole who've felt marginalized and awkward and useless can identify with him (I can, too), but I don't know if that's helpful, because of the "actual people" thing. Which means there are things to like, because... we know more.
In the end, he's a very marginal and mostly a very pathetic character-- and well-- yeah, just a character. With nothing to imply he's secretly interesting. I was just uncomfortable using public opinion to discredit him, I guess. But I've never really seen any sort of Neville-bashing in general. On the contrary, really-- when people mention him at all...
If you want... here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/firelocks/43598.html)~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-06 03:11 pm (UTC)And I wasn't upset by anything you said. It's just that sometimes in threads where the Neville bashing really gets going, some of the comments are just really...vicious and hateful. And many seem to come from the sort of people I think you're talking about -- people who self-identify as Slytherin and are proud of how nasty they can be, particularly to a dorky Gryffindor like Neville.
And, of course, if I don't like it, the onus is on me to stay out of it. Which I really try to do, most of the time!