*defends Neville against her will*
Oct. 5th, 2003 04:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaNeedless to be said, I'm all about the Draco-love and have virtually zero love or interest in Neville. I wouldn't even be talking about him if not for Maya's post.... heh. So yes, I don't really like Neville, but the argument that he's clearly sucky because the Gryffindors who live with him and observe him don't seem to like him either (vs. Draco, who -is- liked by his peers) just bugs me. Lots of people are unliked who deserve to be and liked even though they don't deserve to be. Popularity is a tricksy thing. I mean... certain traits will always be popular (outrageousness, prettiness, wealth, leadership, rebelliousness, sheer attitude) and certain other traits will always be not-so-popular (quietness, timidness, awkwardness, unattractiveness, weirdness, ineptness).
I've never found that people judge others (even others whom they know and live with) with any sort of kindness or accuracy or perhaps any attempt at balance. I admit JKR isn't doing very well at making anyone find Neville likeable (including me), but I don't know about trusting his `friends' on their opinion of him. More than anything, he's just... not very socially versed. Draco is. Even Harry is, though uh... his Boy Who Lived status has more to do with that than his sparkling social-butterfly personality. I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion of -Harry- in canon, either... maybe Hermione, but. Eh. His friends are very biased and limited, in their different ways.
JKR seems to keep writing characters who're very defined by a specific set of biases. Like, their Houses don't even need to define them 'cause they're already so specialized in terms of personality.
No real person is really as Neville-like as Neville is, just as I don't think there's anyone as "Draco-like" as Draco's supposed to be. But then I tend to go easy on people.
Also I'm waaayy more of a mix of Neville and Luna than anything :/ Heh. With flashes of Hermione. Might grow up to be Remus-like. hee.
But yeah, he's in the background, not very well known even by "friends", rather awkward and cursed with foot-in-mouth disease, getting everything wrong half the time when it -counts-, etc. I don't want anyone's pity but then I don't want most people's -attention-, either (that's good, 'cause I really almost never get it, and bitterness is bad for one's constitution).
Draco's and Neville's problems are different. Draco likes attention, that's what makes him feel better. Pity is "bad" attention, it's not really -liking-, and Draco wants to be liked, I think, on his terms. I see no evidence that Neville wants to be liked, or wants pity-- he's just clueless and inept at navigating social situations. He's ... impaired. I mean really. He's got a problem, I think, with his memory or magical ability... something. Draco, on the other hand, is perfectly normal (as far as that goes).
In terms of my own experience.... even though people who got to really know me (rather than observe me) tend to like me... in general, my acquaintances don't hold me in any great esteem, I think, and most likely think I'm a dork. People who know -of- me through my deeds and reputation think I'm worse than a dork, probably a hopeless loser as well. And what Neville has are acquaintances more than friends. They don't really know his history, his situation, any real background except what they find out from sources other than him. Neville doesn't volunteer information. He's a bit like Luna in that way.
Actually... in terms of canon, I reckon I wouldn't have gone for either Draco -or- Neville. They're both dorks without -background-, and what I need most of all is an emotional center to identify with. I adore Harry in the books most of all because I know how he feels, I identify with him-- when I read them, I -am- him. Looked at from the outside, without kindness, most characters (Draco, Harry, Neville, Sirius) would turn me off. I don't -know- Neville. He doesn't seem worth knowing as far as he's portrayed, but any sort of preference for Draco is largely because of his potential, too. The potential I see in him, the places I wish he would go, the things his childish passion makes me believe he's capable of feeling. Talking about potential is a tricky thing, though. You either see it or you don't, and apparently, for Neville, JKR sees it and for Draco she doesn't, and that's perfectly defensible because potential in terms of its realization has to do with plot, with actual -events- that catalyze one aspect of one's personality or another.
I really don't emotionally "get" (though I understand) people who really go out of their way to force personalities that really aren't there onto 2-dimensional characters in fiction. I tend to take fiction "as is", and rarely do I bother hating characters (while I do like a number, hate or disgust seems... too much effort, not -pleasant-). For instance, all the people who elevate the Malfoys and the Slytherins onto some sort of higher plateau of coolness while they jeer and point at the Gryffindors. I mean, it seems rather unhealthy to me.
To me, Lucius sucks greasy donkey-balls no matter how many facts about him you can unearth, because he's quite obviously a great melodramatic dorkus as presented. So is Draco (a melodramatic dorkus), but at least he's not -crusty- yet. Eeeurgh, crusty. Harry is a difficult character whom I love because I understand. Luna and Remus and Hermione I just make that leap of faith and project myself onto a bit. Draco is someone I love because of having seen -so- many fics where his potential is worked out (but I don't love fanon!Draco... I just -notice- canon!Draco more because of fanon!Draco-- it gives canon!Draco a sort of... new life).
But back to Neville.... Taken on his own merits, Neville is just... hard to get any sort of grip on except to say he's that disturbing runny-nose plump boy sitting at the back of class and pretending he's one of "them" (or "us", as the case many be). Draco/Neville makes zero sense to me in -any- universe (thus I can't make myself read `Lust Over Pendle' no matter how often everyone says it's good), because Draco -eats- boys like Neville for breakfast. With ketchup. You can only write them together outside of school, and I don't dig grown-up!Draco, so forget him with Neville, heh. Draco is like the polar opposite of Neville on the social hierarchy-- bully and bullied. Frog and snake. Heh. Do snakes eat frogs? Well, it's not the other way around, that's for sure.
Of course, must give nod to OoTP, New And Improved Neville. So he's like Clark Kent, except not really, because no one saved the day, not even Harry. I actually see where JKR was trying to go with that, and you know... I like it. In theory. Dude... imagine it... we've probably all liked hero-stories like that if they were told from Neville's perspective (which is essential). No particular one comes to mind, but. It's -classic-. All Neville lacks is brilliance and a whole lot of zits before he becomes the Little Nerd Who Could. Yeah, that lack of brilliance is troubling. I think what's really missing is the fact that he's -not- the hero. If he was, he'd have to grow up, he'd be forced to shape up, to lose the fat, to rise to meet the challenge. Classic tale, like I said-- he comes back, smarter and leaner and with an attitude after an interlude in the Forest with his Mentor,YodaDumbledore (?), to save the day. We've all seen it.
Of course most people don't like him. He's everything most of us would be mortified to be, and if we -are-, we're certainly not going to advertise it. So I'm telling y'all right now, I'm a lot like Neville :D :D Or rather... a lot of people think I'm like Neville, and it's public opinion that counts, eh?
Neville has Potential, though. He has to prove himself. If he turns out to be Important-- no, no one will like him anyway. He'll still be the boy with the runny nose and the shorts peeking from above his trousers and the embarrassing tendency to act like he actually -knows- you. Neville Sucks.
But if he does, so does everyone else, man; depending on whom you ask, naturally.
They just do it in a more socially-acceptable way, nein? And hey, at least someone -cares- about the others. That's the important thing, right? At least they -care-. No one really cares about Neville, and why should they?
EDIT - This post by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nostrademons seems to apply to people's reactions to Neville, too. Especially in the way that he gets written off as "annoying"... and how this relates to the general way it's okay to treat people without regard if they're considered annoying. Not mean, not having an "attitude"-- that can be attractive. But being pathetic & annoying? Who forgives that? Also, this reminds me that a lot of people who dislike -Draco- just find him an annoying little git, not worth attention. Funny how that goes.
~~
EDIT - Unrelatedly,nostrademons's thoughts about the Prophecy have been the first thing to have made sense to me about it in all this time. Yes, I do think it's quite fitting to think of it as a self-fulfilling prophecy, a red herring that Dumbledore is using because Voldemort believes it and it's better for Harry this way. Inventing the future. The magic of belief itself. Yes.
I've never found that people judge others (even others whom they know and live with) with any sort of kindness or accuracy or perhaps any attempt at balance. I admit JKR isn't doing very well at making anyone find Neville likeable (including me), but I don't know about trusting his `friends' on their opinion of him. More than anything, he's just... not very socially versed. Draco is. Even Harry is, though uh... his Boy Who Lived status has more to do with that than his sparkling social-butterfly personality. I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion of -Harry- in canon, either... maybe Hermione, but. Eh. His friends are very biased and limited, in their different ways.
JKR seems to keep writing characters who're very defined by a specific set of biases. Like, their Houses don't even need to define them 'cause they're already so specialized in terms of personality.
No real person is really as Neville-like as Neville is, just as I don't think there's anyone as "Draco-like" as Draco's supposed to be. But then I tend to go easy on people.
Also I'm waaayy more of a mix of Neville and Luna than anything :/ Heh. With flashes of Hermione. Might grow up to be Remus-like. hee.
But yeah, he's in the background, not very well known even by "friends", rather awkward and cursed with foot-in-mouth disease, getting everything wrong half the time when it -counts-, etc. I don't want anyone's pity but then I don't want most people's -attention-, either (that's good, 'cause I really almost never get it, and bitterness is bad for one's constitution).
Draco's and Neville's problems are different. Draco likes attention, that's what makes him feel better. Pity is "bad" attention, it's not really -liking-, and Draco wants to be liked, I think, on his terms. I see no evidence that Neville wants to be liked, or wants pity-- he's just clueless and inept at navigating social situations. He's ... impaired. I mean really. He's got a problem, I think, with his memory or magical ability... something. Draco, on the other hand, is perfectly normal (as far as that goes).
In terms of my own experience.... even though people who got to really know me (rather than observe me) tend to like me... in general, my acquaintances don't hold me in any great esteem, I think, and most likely think I'm a dork. People who know -of- me through my deeds and reputation think I'm worse than a dork, probably a hopeless loser as well. And what Neville has are acquaintances more than friends. They don't really know his history, his situation, any real background except what they find out from sources other than him. Neville doesn't volunteer information. He's a bit like Luna in that way.
Actually... in terms of canon, I reckon I wouldn't have gone for either Draco -or- Neville. They're both dorks without -background-, and what I need most of all is an emotional center to identify with. I adore Harry in the books most of all because I know how he feels, I identify with him-- when I read them, I -am- him. Looked at from the outside, without kindness, most characters (Draco, Harry, Neville, Sirius) would turn me off. I don't -know- Neville. He doesn't seem worth knowing as far as he's portrayed, but any sort of preference for Draco is largely because of his potential, too. The potential I see in him, the places I wish he would go, the things his childish passion makes me believe he's capable of feeling. Talking about potential is a tricky thing, though. You either see it or you don't, and apparently, for Neville, JKR sees it and for Draco she doesn't, and that's perfectly defensible because potential in terms of its realization has to do with plot, with actual -events- that catalyze one aspect of one's personality or another.
I really don't emotionally "get" (though I understand) people who really go out of their way to force personalities that really aren't there onto 2-dimensional characters in fiction. I tend to take fiction "as is", and rarely do I bother hating characters (while I do like a number, hate or disgust seems... too much effort, not -pleasant-). For instance, all the people who elevate the Malfoys and the Slytherins onto some sort of higher plateau of coolness while they jeer and point at the Gryffindors. I mean, it seems rather unhealthy to me.
To me, Lucius sucks greasy donkey-balls no matter how many facts about him you can unearth, because he's quite obviously a great melodramatic dorkus as presented. So is Draco (a melodramatic dorkus), but at least he's not -crusty- yet. Eeeurgh, crusty. Harry is a difficult character whom I love because I understand. Luna and Remus and Hermione I just make that leap of faith and project myself onto a bit. Draco is someone I love because of having seen -so- many fics where his potential is worked out (but I don't love fanon!Draco... I just -notice- canon!Draco more because of fanon!Draco-- it gives canon!Draco a sort of... new life).
But back to Neville.... Taken on his own merits, Neville is just... hard to get any sort of grip on except to say he's that disturbing runny-nose plump boy sitting at the back of class and pretending he's one of "them" (or "us", as the case many be). Draco/Neville makes zero sense to me in -any- universe (thus I can't make myself read `Lust Over Pendle' no matter how often everyone says it's good), because Draco -eats- boys like Neville for breakfast. With ketchup. You can only write them together outside of school, and I don't dig grown-up!Draco, so forget him with Neville, heh. Draco is like the polar opposite of Neville on the social hierarchy-- bully and bullied. Frog and snake. Heh. Do snakes eat frogs? Well, it's not the other way around, that's for sure.
Of course, must give nod to OoTP, New And Improved Neville. So he's like Clark Kent, except not really, because no one saved the day, not even Harry. I actually see where JKR was trying to go with that, and you know... I like it. In theory. Dude... imagine it... we've probably all liked hero-stories like that if they were told from Neville's perspective (which is essential). No particular one comes to mind, but. It's -classic-. All Neville lacks is brilliance and a whole lot of zits before he becomes the Little Nerd Who Could. Yeah, that lack of brilliance is troubling. I think what's really missing is the fact that he's -not- the hero. If he was, he'd have to grow up, he'd be forced to shape up, to lose the fat, to rise to meet the challenge. Classic tale, like I said-- he comes back, smarter and leaner and with an attitude after an interlude in the Forest with his Mentor,
Of course most people don't like him. He's everything most of us would be mortified to be, and if we -are-, we're certainly not going to advertise it. So I'm telling y'all right now, I'm a lot like Neville :D :D Or rather... a lot of people think I'm like Neville, and it's public opinion that counts, eh?
Neville has Potential, though. He has to prove himself. If he turns out to be Important-- no, no one will like him anyway. He'll still be the boy with the runny nose and the shorts peeking from above his trousers and the embarrassing tendency to act like he actually -knows- you. Neville Sucks.
But if he does, so does everyone else, man; depending on whom you ask, naturally.
They just do it in a more socially-acceptable way, nein? And hey, at least someone -cares- about the others. That's the important thing, right? At least they -care-. No one really cares about Neville, and why should they?
EDIT - This post by
nostrademons seems to apply to people's reactions to Neville, too. Especially in the way that he gets written off as "annoying"... and how this relates to the general way it's okay to treat people without regard if they're considered annoying. Not mean, not having an "attitude"-- that can be attractive. But being pathetic & annoying? Who forgives that? Also, this reminds me that a lot of people who dislike -Draco- just find him an annoying little git, not worth attention. Funny how that goes. ~~
EDIT - Unrelatedly,
nostrademons's thoughts about the Prophecy have been the first thing to have made sense to me about it in all this time. Yes, I do think it's quite fitting to think of it as a self-fulfilling prophecy, a red herring that Dumbledore is using because Voldemort believes it and it's better for Harry this way. Inventing the future. The magic of belief itself. Yes.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-10-06 07:03 am (UTC)And I'll bet you're totally pretty.:-P
I'm pretty sure of the kind of relationship I'd have with Neville if I were in school with him. I'd be friendly with him. I wouldn't hate him or pick on him. If he gave off a creepy vibe it probably wouldn't bother me enough to go out of my way to avoid him or anything. I'd probably be like Hermione where I'd meet his grandmother and it would turn out she'd know who I was and all that. It's weird because a lot of things about Neville I *should* like--that he seems to not want to bother people with his shortcomings etc. though I'm not really sure yet what he's really about. He does keep putting himself in the center of things despite saying he doesn't want to get in the way and all that. We really have no idea what makes him tick, how he feels about any of this. I could easily believe Neville would be completely unlikeable if we really knew him. He might be one of those people who, when you get to know them, turn out to be a jerk. We can't assume he's really a nice guy because he's been overlooked.
In the past he hasn't bothered me. But this whole thing of suddenly making him more than that, that he's tragic and overlooked and will be a late-bloomer...that I don't like. To me he's just...he's not offensive but he's soft and slow. It's like his pudginess. I don't ever think of Neville as fat in terms of being a glutton--he's not Dudley. But he's soft. Even if he's got some inner strength that's helped him deal with his parents and all that...I just don't think he's underneath a big hero and I don't want to see him become that. Even the thing with his parents...he's never known them. I don't think he's got the same passion about their situation that Harry has about his parents. He doesn't really seem to want anything that much or even not wanting anything that much, so when he's suddenly put before me as someone I should take a second look at etc. I just feel like he's too passive. I just don't like having to spend that much time with this character.
Neville mumbles..
Date: 2003-10-06 10:53 am (UTC)There is the remembrall, which while we see it in the books seems to go off quite a lot. It does seem to be that he can focus more when he forced to be "brave", but it's liek he's Xander from Buffy. A normal boy in extroirdinairy circumstances who tries to do the best he can.
Well at least so far. Though with all these plant references, it seems liek he is being pegged for part of the Next generation team Rowling seems to have lined up in her inferences. I mean, Draco = Snape, Luna = Trelawney (though one could argue that Lavender and Pavarti), Neville = Sprout, you could almost make a case for Hermione = mcconagel. But then Ron probably is the one most naturally a seer even if Luan is the one most interewted in Divination (or informationmancy as a more modern term).
I guess there's also the fact that Neville in a way is in a similar position as Wormtail. Except instead of feeling sorry for himself he keeps pushing on, instead of despairing and being succeptible.
Ithink people are generally really surprised at his bravery (the old saying of whether you are brave or foolish seemms to apply).
But, I guess I wonderwhat Neville would have been liek without his taste of the Deatheater Catalyst (I think its obvious there was quite a scuffle with Neville as a 1 year old feeling crucius and seeing his Grandpa die and probably noting his parents pain, and well the years of being left with his parents there but not there.
But I guess with the slightly creepy kid with an oozing plant thing.. I think Neville mostly lacks confidence, probably in part by his grandma's un realistic expectations as a child to be great at a type of magic that isn't really his cup of tea. If he really is more able to deal with plants better, has an innate talent (which Rowling seems to have a nack for pegging onto people of teir future magical careers).. I guess He seems almost likable and competent in the Department of mysteries showdown scene, he's just not a complete match for seasoned veteran Deatheaters..
Anyway.. Rambled (and I think this is disjointed enough to truly be a ramble) enough.
Here?
no subject
Date: 2003-10-06 03:56 pm (UTC)Yeah, I'd never pick on Neville, never, obviously not. And I might end up saying mean things to Draco in his defence like 'stop being such a little shit!' But then I might see Draco doing his little impressions, and I'd be like 'I'd like to be his friend if he wasn't SUCH A LITTLE SHIT.' Whereas I'd always be friendly to Neville, but I'd never want to be friends with Neville.
yes. *cries* Neville is the OotP character who gets developed. (well, and Ginny, but she's overdeveloped and now the picture is ruined.) *cries*