*defends Neville against her will*
Oct. 5th, 2003 04:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaNeedless to be said, I'm all about the Draco-love and have virtually zero love or interest in Neville. I wouldn't even be talking about him if not for Maya's post.... heh. So yes, I don't really like Neville, but the argument that he's clearly sucky because the Gryffindors who live with him and observe him don't seem to like him either (vs. Draco, who -is- liked by his peers) just bugs me. Lots of people are unliked who deserve to be and liked even though they don't deserve to be. Popularity is a tricksy thing. I mean... certain traits will always be popular (outrageousness, prettiness, wealth, leadership, rebelliousness, sheer attitude) and certain other traits will always be not-so-popular (quietness, timidness, awkwardness, unattractiveness, weirdness, ineptness).
I've never found that people judge others (even others whom they know and live with) with any sort of kindness or accuracy or perhaps any attempt at balance. I admit JKR isn't doing very well at making anyone find Neville likeable (including me), but I don't know about trusting his `friends' on their opinion of him. More than anything, he's just... not very socially versed. Draco is. Even Harry is, though uh... his Boy Who Lived status has more to do with that than his sparkling social-butterfly personality. I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion of -Harry- in canon, either... maybe Hermione, but. Eh. His friends are very biased and limited, in their different ways.
JKR seems to keep writing characters who're very defined by a specific set of biases. Like, their Houses don't even need to define them 'cause they're already so specialized in terms of personality.
No real person is really as Neville-like as Neville is, just as I don't think there's anyone as "Draco-like" as Draco's supposed to be. But then I tend to go easy on people.
Also I'm waaayy more of a mix of Neville and Luna than anything :/ Heh. With flashes of Hermione. Might grow up to be Remus-like. hee.
But yeah, he's in the background, not very well known even by "friends", rather awkward and cursed with foot-in-mouth disease, getting everything wrong half the time when it -counts-, etc. I don't want anyone's pity but then I don't want most people's -attention-, either (that's good, 'cause I really almost never get it, and bitterness is bad for one's constitution).
Draco's and Neville's problems are different. Draco likes attention, that's what makes him feel better. Pity is "bad" attention, it's not really -liking-, and Draco wants to be liked, I think, on his terms. I see no evidence that Neville wants to be liked, or wants pity-- he's just clueless and inept at navigating social situations. He's ... impaired. I mean really. He's got a problem, I think, with his memory or magical ability... something. Draco, on the other hand, is perfectly normal (as far as that goes).
In terms of my own experience.... even though people who got to really know me (rather than observe me) tend to like me... in general, my acquaintances don't hold me in any great esteem, I think, and most likely think I'm a dork. People who know -of- me through my deeds and reputation think I'm worse than a dork, probably a hopeless loser as well. And what Neville has are acquaintances more than friends. They don't really know his history, his situation, any real background except what they find out from sources other than him. Neville doesn't volunteer information. He's a bit like Luna in that way.
Actually... in terms of canon, I reckon I wouldn't have gone for either Draco -or- Neville. They're both dorks without -background-, and what I need most of all is an emotional center to identify with. I adore Harry in the books most of all because I know how he feels, I identify with him-- when I read them, I -am- him. Looked at from the outside, without kindness, most characters (Draco, Harry, Neville, Sirius) would turn me off. I don't -know- Neville. He doesn't seem worth knowing as far as he's portrayed, but any sort of preference for Draco is largely because of his potential, too. The potential I see in him, the places I wish he would go, the things his childish passion makes me believe he's capable of feeling. Talking about potential is a tricky thing, though. You either see it or you don't, and apparently, for Neville, JKR sees it and for Draco she doesn't, and that's perfectly defensible because potential in terms of its realization has to do with plot, with actual -events- that catalyze one aspect of one's personality or another.
I really don't emotionally "get" (though I understand) people who really go out of their way to force personalities that really aren't there onto 2-dimensional characters in fiction. I tend to take fiction "as is", and rarely do I bother hating characters (while I do like a number, hate or disgust seems... too much effort, not -pleasant-). For instance, all the people who elevate the Malfoys and the Slytherins onto some sort of higher plateau of coolness while they jeer and point at the Gryffindors. I mean, it seems rather unhealthy to me.
To me, Lucius sucks greasy donkey-balls no matter how many facts about him you can unearth, because he's quite obviously a great melodramatic dorkus as presented. So is Draco (a melodramatic dorkus), but at least he's not -crusty- yet. Eeeurgh, crusty. Harry is a difficult character whom I love because I understand. Luna and Remus and Hermione I just make that leap of faith and project myself onto a bit. Draco is someone I love because of having seen -so- many fics where his potential is worked out (but I don't love fanon!Draco... I just -notice- canon!Draco more because of fanon!Draco-- it gives canon!Draco a sort of... new life).
But back to Neville.... Taken on his own merits, Neville is just... hard to get any sort of grip on except to say he's that disturbing runny-nose plump boy sitting at the back of class and pretending he's one of "them" (or "us", as the case many be). Draco/Neville makes zero sense to me in -any- universe (thus I can't make myself read `Lust Over Pendle' no matter how often everyone says it's good), because Draco -eats- boys like Neville for breakfast. With ketchup. You can only write them together outside of school, and I don't dig grown-up!Draco, so forget him with Neville, heh. Draco is like the polar opposite of Neville on the social hierarchy-- bully and bullied. Frog and snake. Heh. Do snakes eat frogs? Well, it's not the other way around, that's for sure.
Of course, must give nod to OoTP, New And Improved Neville. So he's like Clark Kent, except not really, because no one saved the day, not even Harry. I actually see where JKR was trying to go with that, and you know... I like it. In theory. Dude... imagine it... we've probably all liked hero-stories like that if they were told from Neville's perspective (which is essential). No particular one comes to mind, but. It's -classic-. All Neville lacks is brilliance and a whole lot of zits before he becomes the Little Nerd Who Could. Yeah, that lack of brilliance is troubling. I think what's really missing is the fact that he's -not- the hero. If he was, he'd have to grow up, he'd be forced to shape up, to lose the fat, to rise to meet the challenge. Classic tale, like I said-- he comes back, smarter and leaner and with an attitude after an interlude in the Forest with his Mentor,YodaDumbledore (?), to save the day. We've all seen it.
Of course most people don't like him. He's everything most of us would be mortified to be, and if we -are-, we're certainly not going to advertise it. So I'm telling y'all right now, I'm a lot like Neville :D :D Or rather... a lot of people think I'm like Neville, and it's public opinion that counts, eh?
Neville has Potential, though. He has to prove himself. If he turns out to be Important-- no, no one will like him anyway. He'll still be the boy with the runny nose and the shorts peeking from above his trousers and the embarrassing tendency to act like he actually -knows- you. Neville Sucks.
But if he does, so does everyone else, man; depending on whom you ask, naturally.
They just do it in a more socially-acceptable way, nein? And hey, at least someone -cares- about the others. That's the important thing, right? At least they -care-. No one really cares about Neville, and why should they?
EDIT - This post by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
nostrademons seems to apply to people's reactions to Neville, too. Especially in the way that he gets written off as "annoying"... and how this relates to the general way it's okay to treat people without regard if they're considered annoying. Not mean, not having an "attitude"-- that can be attractive. But being pathetic & annoying? Who forgives that? Also, this reminds me that a lot of people who dislike -Draco- just find him an annoying little git, not worth attention. Funny how that goes.
~~
EDIT - Unrelatedly,nostrademons's thoughts about the Prophecy have been the first thing to have made sense to me about it in all this time. Yes, I do think it's quite fitting to think of it as a self-fulfilling prophecy, a red herring that Dumbledore is using because Voldemort believes it and it's better for Harry this way. Inventing the future. The magic of belief itself. Yes.
I've never found that people judge others (even others whom they know and live with) with any sort of kindness or accuracy or perhaps any attempt at balance. I admit JKR isn't doing very well at making anyone find Neville likeable (including me), but I don't know about trusting his `friends' on their opinion of him. More than anything, he's just... not very socially versed. Draco is. Even Harry is, though uh... his Boy Who Lived status has more to do with that than his sparkling social-butterfly personality. I wouldn't trust anyone's opinion of -Harry- in canon, either... maybe Hermione, but. Eh. His friends are very biased and limited, in their different ways.
JKR seems to keep writing characters who're very defined by a specific set of biases. Like, their Houses don't even need to define them 'cause they're already so specialized in terms of personality.
No real person is really as Neville-like as Neville is, just as I don't think there's anyone as "Draco-like" as Draco's supposed to be. But then I tend to go easy on people.
Also I'm waaayy more of a mix of Neville and Luna than anything :/ Heh. With flashes of Hermione. Might grow up to be Remus-like. hee.
But yeah, he's in the background, not very well known even by "friends", rather awkward and cursed with foot-in-mouth disease, getting everything wrong half the time when it -counts-, etc. I don't want anyone's pity but then I don't want most people's -attention-, either (that's good, 'cause I really almost never get it, and bitterness is bad for one's constitution).
Draco's and Neville's problems are different. Draco likes attention, that's what makes him feel better. Pity is "bad" attention, it's not really -liking-, and Draco wants to be liked, I think, on his terms. I see no evidence that Neville wants to be liked, or wants pity-- he's just clueless and inept at navigating social situations. He's ... impaired. I mean really. He's got a problem, I think, with his memory or magical ability... something. Draco, on the other hand, is perfectly normal (as far as that goes).
In terms of my own experience.... even though people who got to really know me (rather than observe me) tend to like me... in general, my acquaintances don't hold me in any great esteem, I think, and most likely think I'm a dork. People who know -of- me through my deeds and reputation think I'm worse than a dork, probably a hopeless loser as well. And what Neville has are acquaintances more than friends. They don't really know his history, his situation, any real background except what they find out from sources other than him. Neville doesn't volunteer information. He's a bit like Luna in that way.
Actually... in terms of canon, I reckon I wouldn't have gone for either Draco -or- Neville. They're both dorks without -background-, and what I need most of all is an emotional center to identify with. I adore Harry in the books most of all because I know how he feels, I identify with him-- when I read them, I -am- him. Looked at from the outside, without kindness, most characters (Draco, Harry, Neville, Sirius) would turn me off. I don't -know- Neville. He doesn't seem worth knowing as far as he's portrayed, but any sort of preference for Draco is largely because of his potential, too. The potential I see in him, the places I wish he would go, the things his childish passion makes me believe he's capable of feeling. Talking about potential is a tricky thing, though. You either see it or you don't, and apparently, for Neville, JKR sees it and for Draco she doesn't, and that's perfectly defensible because potential in terms of its realization has to do with plot, with actual -events- that catalyze one aspect of one's personality or another.
I really don't emotionally "get" (though I understand) people who really go out of their way to force personalities that really aren't there onto 2-dimensional characters in fiction. I tend to take fiction "as is", and rarely do I bother hating characters (while I do like a number, hate or disgust seems... too much effort, not -pleasant-). For instance, all the people who elevate the Malfoys and the Slytherins onto some sort of higher plateau of coolness while they jeer and point at the Gryffindors. I mean, it seems rather unhealthy to me.
To me, Lucius sucks greasy donkey-balls no matter how many facts about him you can unearth, because he's quite obviously a great melodramatic dorkus as presented. So is Draco (a melodramatic dorkus), but at least he's not -crusty- yet. Eeeurgh, crusty. Harry is a difficult character whom I love because I understand. Luna and Remus and Hermione I just make that leap of faith and project myself onto a bit. Draco is someone I love because of having seen -so- many fics where his potential is worked out (but I don't love fanon!Draco... I just -notice- canon!Draco more because of fanon!Draco-- it gives canon!Draco a sort of... new life).
But back to Neville.... Taken on his own merits, Neville is just... hard to get any sort of grip on except to say he's that disturbing runny-nose plump boy sitting at the back of class and pretending he's one of "them" (or "us", as the case many be). Draco/Neville makes zero sense to me in -any- universe (thus I can't make myself read `Lust Over Pendle' no matter how often everyone says it's good), because Draco -eats- boys like Neville for breakfast. With ketchup. You can only write them together outside of school, and I don't dig grown-up!Draco, so forget him with Neville, heh. Draco is like the polar opposite of Neville on the social hierarchy-- bully and bullied. Frog and snake. Heh. Do snakes eat frogs? Well, it's not the other way around, that's for sure.
Of course, must give nod to OoTP, New And Improved Neville. So he's like Clark Kent, except not really, because no one saved the day, not even Harry. I actually see where JKR was trying to go with that, and you know... I like it. In theory. Dude... imagine it... we've probably all liked hero-stories like that if they were told from Neville's perspective (which is essential). No particular one comes to mind, but. It's -classic-. All Neville lacks is brilliance and a whole lot of zits before he becomes the Little Nerd Who Could. Yeah, that lack of brilliance is troubling. I think what's really missing is the fact that he's -not- the hero. If he was, he'd have to grow up, he'd be forced to shape up, to lose the fat, to rise to meet the challenge. Classic tale, like I said-- he comes back, smarter and leaner and with an attitude after an interlude in the Forest with his Mentor,
Of course most people don't like him. He's everything most of us would be mortified to be, and if we -are-, we're certainly not going to advertise it. So I'm telling y'all right now, I'm a lot like Neville :D :D Or rather... a lot of people think I'm like Neville, and it's public opinion that counts, eh?
Neville has Potential, though. He has to prove himself. If he turns out to be Important-- no, no one will like him anyway. He'll still be the boy with the runny nose and the shorts peeking from above his trousers and the embarrassing tendency to act like he actually -knows- you. Neville Sucks.
But if he does, so does everyone else, man; depending on whom you ask, naturally.
They just do it in a more socially-acceptable way, nein? And hey, at least someone -cares- about the others. That's the important thing, right? At least they -care-. No one really cares about Neville, and why should they?
EDIT - This post by
nostrademons seems to apply to people's reactions to Neville, too. Especially in the way that he gets written off as "annoying"... and how this relates to the general way it's okay to treat people without regard if they're considered annoying. Not mean, not having an "attitude"-- that can be attractive. But being pathetic & annoying? Who forgives that? Also, this reminds me that a lot of people who dislike -Draco- just find him an annoying little git, not worth attention. Funny how that goes. ~~
EDIT - Unrelatedly,
nostrademons's thoughts about the Prophecy have been the first thing to have made sense to me about it in all this time. Yes, I do think it's quite fitting to think of it as a self-fulfilling prophecy, a red herring that Dumbledore is using because Voldemort believes it and it's better for Harry this way. Inventing the future. The magic of belief itself. Yes.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 03:19 pm (UTC)::shrugs::
And now I shall be going to eat lunch at the EXQUISITE dining hall known as Hinman. -_-;
no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 06:11 pm (UTC)Except most of them are also intelligent and striking in some way, but hey~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 06:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 06:18 pm (UTC)Aahahah, am elitist bum ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 06:24 pm (UTC)Perhaps I'm taking it too far, since it is a personal opinion and right of yours, but for some reason I feel offended, as if I was doing the right thing by fearing utter rejection if I came across as an idiot. I happen to consider myself to be of average intelligence myself, and feel I'm perfectly capable of friending those more intelligent that I.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 06:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 06:38 pm (UTC)There's this girl who stalked me sometimes... she just came up to me and started talking at me, but she gave off this really creepy vibe. Like... she freaked me out and I don't know why. It's not that she seemed dumb... she seemed just... I dunno what the hell she was doing or why she kept asking me these inane things. If I don't have something in common with somebody, it's hard to relate in an easy way.
On the other hand, if I -do- have something in common, I sort of assume they're intelligent enough. I don't think of my friends as "average" just because I like them, maybe?
I find something interesting about their mind (which is usually what I like them for), so they must be above average.
Wondering what -else- there is to like people for, I suppose there's "personality"-- kindness, spunk, spirit, (funniness doesn't count because it indicates intelligence; artistic ability also doesn't count 'cause it's a type of intelligence)... but I've never really met a person with a lot of spirit that I would say was "average".
Hmmm. I guess my idea of intelligence isn't necessarily bound up in book learning or anything. I just get a sense of how much a person is able to -understand- me and to make me laugh/think/smile, and that to me indicates intelligence, and it must be above average simply because I'm that full of myself, ahahahah.
I can -like- a person that doesn't really challenge me and is just "sweet" or "gifted" but not intellectually (say, they write good stuff but don't really analyze anything-- they're intelligent without being analytical). But again, that's just right brain intelligence, which I can dig.
Average intelligence is just so unsurprising, so flat. I have to have -something- to admire about a person. I suppose I was saying all my friends happen to be above average intelligence, and the more I respect them, most likely the closer we are. If they respect me, but I don't really respect them equally, it just creates an imbalance that's awkward, plus conversations would get stalled.
There's a certain equality implied in even being able to have an easy conversation with someone, and it's this equality, this ease of communication and understanding, that would tell me my friend is above average. Ahahah which makes me sound like I think much of myself, but I think it's just sort of ...er... realism ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 06:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-05 10:39 pm (UTC)I didn't mean... what did you think I meant? I wasn't really directing anything towards -you- in that rambling about myself... more wanting to explain how I saw my reactions towards others, I guess...?
I didn't mean anything about you being boring at all..!
Was there something scary or offensive or disturbing about that ramble? Why would you not want to post a comment....? I mean, or is it that you think I wouldn't want you to....?
Meep?
Did I explain myself badly? I do er... express myself in convoluted confusing terms most of the time, really. I just meant that... er... I find a lot of people intelligent if they have something to say to me at all, really-- if I can have a conversation. Which isn't that harsh, is it?
I don't like to think of myself judging anyone... I don't think I do as much as is common, really. I do think that there are patterns to behavior that could be observed, I guess.... but er... that doesn't make it sinister?
What did you think I was saying?
Meep? :/ ...?
Did I upset you somehow by implying inadvertently something about you being like that one girl who stalked me to talk about inane things? (That's the only thing I can think of.)
Was my explaining myself in itself somehow disturbing? I wouldn't rant just because I don't rant about people, really. Er... angrily or sadly or at all specifically, really. Eeep??
What's wrong, basically?
no subject
Date: 2003-10-06 12:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-06 01:00 am (UTC)When I saw you, that is...? Because I thought that was okay, although er... a bit of a misadventure what with me not finding things and the guard and er... yeah -.-
I act like a dork all the time, really. Intelligence and acting like one is loony is far from mutually exclusive~:) That said, since I'm not sure what I said that was triggering, specifically, I dunno what to do about it, really, but er.... I'm sorry if I er... whatever it is, I didn't mean it that way, probably ><
Also, there's a difference between people who wind up becoming people I regularly talk to (thus being assumedly roughtly equivalent in intelligence) and people I talk to at -all-, which probably have all manner of levels of intelligence that I can't even begin to estimate 'cause I don't know them well.
Which probably doesn't help, but.
Meep.
Sowwy -.-