reenka

It's funny that how I forget myself, sometimes, trying to be all reasonable and "hey, I can take it". When Maya wrote that post about needing brightness in stories, needing some sort of hope, some sort of redemption, just because that's what stories are -for-, they're such potent catalysts for change, and it's almost unbearable to think of this ever-expanding fictional universe, which, unlike the "real" one will never change unless the author says so....

I wasn't sure I myself thought I needed stories to be prickled with light in that way, to inspire me, to basically function as escapism. I don't always want escapism-- I can be mesmerized by the beautiful ways one can bear the most unbearable pain, I can appreciate darkness, something like heavy drapes drawn against the world. It's an aesthetic.

The interesting thing is, that Maya wrote two of the fanfics that I'd consider most hopeless and nearly unbearable in this fandom. `Your Every Wish' and `Dark Side of Light', of course. Both of them completely drained me in their complete dessication of any sort of hope for relief. I suppose the thing that redeemed them for me was the aching presence of strong emotion, of love, of need, of passion, even though it was all misdirected and unrequited and doomed and too little too late. Even so, both of these stories were -taut- with the possibility of light, always denied. It was much more powerful because it had an awareness of what it was missing, not just implied but somehow present.

There were the threads there of how the hopeless tangle wound itself-- it didn't just come into being fully-formed before the beginning of the story. It wound itself up -within- the story, and I think I find that essential as well. If I read a fic with such a dearth of hope in it, I think I want to see it bleed. Not incidentally, but as a major part of the driving force behind the story. I want to see the emotional arc, even if it ends in despair.

Which is why I think fics which start in utter despair and end in utter despair just completely don't work for me. I wait and wait (if I keep reading) for the shift to occur, for that essential (for me) narrative change, where it doesn't matter what, but something's not the same anymore. Pain that is constant and at a high pitch throughout a story wears me out without giving me anything in return. It casts me down without illuminating me, without telling me -why- and allowing my emotions some sort of outlet, a release.

I was raised on fairy-tales, and I think I still think in that way. My ideal ending is, of course, Tolkien's eucatastrophe, where we come through darkness to be redeemed. I think this is the sort of essential light that Maya was wanting in her post-- that basic thread of hope about the human condition if nothing else. Editing that, I would hope to at least for an emotional catharsis of some sort, even if it's a dark one. I would hope to feel -cleansed- by a flood of grief. That's a release also-- the release of tears, of really mourning something. It's a dark ending for the fic, but for the reader, it might still be a strong, powerful thing, something to seize on their hearts and make them really take that necessary gulping breath of cold air.

An example of a relentlessly dark fic that released me in a way that felt right without really destroying its darkness or offering any platitudes would be

weatherby's `Contrition'. It's a very painful story, but it works because the pain itself becomes a kind of bond, a catalyst that brings friends together. Grief itself has a sort of arc. It doesn't really go away, but at some point, if you have support, it eases, it transforms. You realize that you're alive and you can feel and that not everything has to hurt anymore. And that can be a revelation.

All of this is a way of explaining why

amanuensis1's new fic, `And Just Plain Wrong' didn't work for me, why so many unrelentingly dark fics don't work for me. I can't even enjoy the writing because the ball of misery in me makes it a chore to -read-, even. What's the point? I get nothing from it, no pleasure, no release, no titillation, no spark of knowledge or enlightenment, no new thought. I -knew- life sucks and then you die. No fic has to tell me.

So I guess I'm with Maya, except to say that darkfic -can- work, for me anway, (as her own fics would show!) if there's passion, some guiding principle, a force at work behind it. Basically, I need an explanation that doesn't feel forced. It needs to feel natural. And in real life, there are rhythms-- torture is never endless and unbearable-- and if it is, the person tends to go mad and there is no story because their mind is a barren wasteland. Even if life completely clobbers you, the heroic ones among us go on to have a very rich life of the mind. You don't need anything except what's in there, in your brain, waiting for you. A whole world.

I'm just saying that when it comes down to it, -I- will never really enjoy anyone's real pain. I can enjoy the sort of pain I know that person can tolerate-- but when a character is undergoing unbearable punishment of any sort, I can not ever enjoy it. And I'm glad, man. I'm glad. And I don't think it's because I'm so kink-free. I totally do like semi-noncon and physical domination between equals and such. It's hot. I'm into Buffy/Spike-- `Wrecked' was my favorite episode of the pairing (possibly tied with the musical, because dude-- Willow and Spike and Anya and Buffy and Giles, all singing!!). The difference there is that it was pain both of them could easily withstand. It was nothing, really. It was a game, almost.

Slytherlynx said something about enjoying fics which give Draco pain-- and I can too-- and I do-- when there's any chance that -he'll- enjoy it, if not now, then a chance that it will -lead- to his enjoyment. Pain for the sake of pain followed by more pain is just... pointless. I don't like sweetness for the sake of sweetness followed by sweetness, either. Though I realize both things are more about emotional/physical kink than philosophy, for me as well. (My kink is pain made bearable, made feral by joy or anger or passion-- some sort of living, breathing, kicking emotion).

In `And Just Plain Wrong', it was far, far from a game to Harry, and that meant I had zero chance of enjoying it. Thus I couldn't really enjoy Sara's `Control' or Weather of the Heart-- in the latter case, it was almost a travesty that it -did- turn around and become "okay"-- but I'm such a sucker for it not being awful that I -was- relieved and started to enjoy the fic more at that point. I -need- that relief simply to -breathe-, to be able to -think- about the story. I need it to be a -story-, where there's a frame, a -boundary- around suffering, which is why it's instructive, which is why you can -think- about it and look at it from different angles. Which is why it's a story and not a window onto hell. (And yes, this means I feel awful about the two rapefics I've written, because they're so pointless, and I'm not too happy about several others that were dark, that I don't feel -went- anywhere).

And I can, of course, appreciate a window onto hell also. If it had something to tell me besides "this hurts, doesn't it". Just a bit of knowledge would make it worthwhile, I think.

To me, that is.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

cathexys.livejournal.com

Oh, can I jump in here...much belated. I just read the fic and finally read the entire discussion spawned by it. I won't address it, but I do agree with spare_change on the narrative conventions and how certain subject matters are inappropriate for them.

Most Holocaust narratives *do* have a narrative arc, some plot that begins somewhere before the camps in a better time and tends to end with liberation [In fact, the holocaust museum puts such a nice uplifting (and utterly American) spin on the entire period so as to *start* with a picture of Dachau's liberation.] Wiesel and Levi are good examples as are countless less impressive texts.

Personally, however, one of the most moving text I've read is Charlotte Delbo's trilogy Auschwitz and After in which she presents scenes, fragments, snippets from life in the camp. We do not get the comfort of a future or a happy ending or a narrative catharsis but only the never-ending incessant pain and suffering. She ends the first book as in medias res as she begins it. Every day is like the previous one and like the next one will be. Because while you're in the middle of it, no amount of narrativizing can put a different spin on it.

OK, I will say something about the fic after all. I think my problem with it (and I haven't thought that through and am going on gut alone and am not sure I could generalize or find other fic...though I have an XF one in mind that had a similarly longlasting horrid impact on me and, coming to think of it, there was a BtVS series that didn't let me go either...) is the way sex remains ambiguous.

In other words, it's not that I can't read noncon or that I don't like pain...but if the general tenor of the story is *that* serious, *that* depressing and unsettling (I mean, we were both doing the holocaust comparison here!), then sex for me cannot be titillating any more. The sex scenes were long, and I wasn't sure whether I was supposed to enjoy them or be horrified.

And maybe that's a handicap of a good writer...if the fic were just a bad rape fantasy, I wouldn't have cared. But it *is* well written and it *does* place me into this world and these characters...and I feel extremely unsettled by the way sex becomes a weapon yet gets described in terms that we often use in noncon or bdsm when the ultimate goal is hopefully partial or eventual pleasure for the characters and certainly for us.

There's a lot of interesting stuff on porn and the Holocaust...but studying it and enjoying it are two entirely different things for me.

From:

spare-change.livejournal.com

Well, I won't repeat all my stuff about the Holocaust here, 'cos I think we're in agreement.

But as for the noncon: I guess I'm just sensitive because back in June I wrote a fic rather similar to this recent one by Amanuensis, I just haven't finished a couple of middle bits yet. So obviously hearing that everyone doesn't like her version isn't very heartening.

I mean, there are certainly parts of my fic that are sexy. And my readers (Amanuensis and addictedkitten) seemed to get, er, steamed up by it when I showed them an unfinished version in July. But it's basically a very bleak little story and I felt desperately sorry for Harry the entire way through, writing it.

And okay: it's probably not a very good fic, and it's one that anyone else who doesn't write a million things at once and doesn't go through months-long periods of paralysis could've finished in a weekend, tops. But after all this time with the fic, I'm fond of it, flaws and all, and knowing that it's just going to be read as dark and disturbing and over-the-top is annoying. Because even though that was actually the intention, I find those things to be FUN! They were supposed to make people say WHEEE! Not be used as reasons to dislike the fic.

*burns files* WAH!!!! *self-pities massively*

My problem with A's fic was simply that the narrative needed to be better structured, and more emphasis placed on the ambiguous relationship between Snape and Harry. I mean, there was a definite narrative arc, but in porn, the narrative and emotional climax also needs to coincide with the sexual one. I read this by a porn writer and it's absolutely true: you have to admit that people are wanking to your fic and no matter how many sex scenes you include, you have to write with the one big orgasm in mind. Seriously. And it's just as valid a technical challenge as any other. So that may be one reason why people read the story as somehow monotonous. But I, for one, certainly liked it.

Not to say that all fanfic should be porn, but if you're going to write smart kinky wankfic, this is good advice to keep in mind.

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Heyo. I mean, I feel a tad bit like I've exhausted the subject, but. Um. I don't think you can equate stories that are about similar things, y'know? Every story is different if it's by a good writer, I think~:)
I totally know what you mean about the climax of a porn-fic being... er... the climax. On the other hand, I don't know if I can see A's fic as porn in any way shape or form (though it had plenty of sex), so this is partly my problem, I guess. The whole thing about a narrative climax? That's what I was talking about. But I thought you were saying one doesn't need a traditional story structure with a climax? 'Cause that's what I wanted. A climax gives a story -drive-, makes me come together for me.

That's what I meant when I said it was "flat", that it flatlined, that it didn't have a "point". Visual-metaphor-wise, a "climax" would be like a spike on a line spectrum, where the narrative sort of peaks-- contrasting the rest of it. Giving it a "point", like a vantage point almost. Otherwise it runs in my mind the way watercolor would-- spreading in a wash everywhere and not really forming a distinct impression other than a -feeling- of the general emotional latitude. Like a nightmare that passes without me really remembering the details.

I guess this is just how -my- mind works, my way of interpreting events and my memory in general.

So that threw me off, seeing all the porn without ever being able to really see it as -porn-, because you simply can't have it be porn if you can't identify or empathize with any of the participants except for a feeling of pity and sadness that just keeps building but never goes anywhere.
I've read other bleak stories and they're not all like this. Admittedly, I don't read much bleak porn.... er. But I suppose the -porn- would be something I can enjoy, then, supposedly? Well, someone needs to be enjoying it for me to enjoy it, unless the fic is written for a narrow audience which likes their own emotional pain "that way".

Which totally gets off the topic of stories about trauma and death and despair (and whatever point or lack hereof lies within them) and goes into stories about sex-within-pain-and-despair which gets some people off...? And -that- would be the point?

That was my problem, really. I couldn't tell whether it should be read as a story-about-trauma in which case it had too much meandering sex or a story-about-painful-sex in which case it was just way too limp~:)

But this isn't really a reflection on all fics like it, you see. Um. Yeah -.-

From:

spare-change.livejournal.com

Well, I found it hot ... do with that what you will. I like the Marquis de Sade, too, and the fantasies he describes are very unrealistic, violent, and nonconsensual. I think noncon is like anything else: some folks like it, some folks don't, and there's all sorts of flavors (mindgames, violence, twisted consent, etc.) to choose from.

But I thought you were saying one doesn't need a traditional story structure with a climax? 'Cause that's what I wanted. A climax gives a story -drive-, makes me come together for me.

Two things: (1) There was definitely a climax here. The story begins with Harry feeling grateful that Snape is the only one who gives them rules to follow, and who acts as if his torture of the students may be merely to satisfy the expectations of the other Death Eaters. This gives Harry hope, which he then tries to act upon when it comes to Hermione's punishment. But the Malfoys and Voldemort are already suspicious of Snape, so now, regardless of what Snape actually feels, he is going to have to act just as capriciously and viciously as all the Death Eaters. Even if there are still these tiny hesitations and moments of consideration, they don't matter. Ultimately, both he and Harry are trapped: one as persecuter, one as victim.

A story is about change. The story goes from hope --> hopelessness.

And the story was not intended to be about trauma: it was written to be disturbing and hot. So ... I don't think every story needs to follow a traditional narrative structure, and I did think that the monotony of the narrative was partially the point, just as it was in Nimori's A Year And A Day. (Another fic which I adore.) The sex is monotonous for the characters as well. That's the point of being a sex slave, or however you want to put it.

But I did think that in this particular story, Harry's moment of realization that there is no chance of Snape coming to his rescue -- that Harry is well and truly fucked -- gets passed over a little too quickly. And that's the narrative and emotional climax to the story, so -- just to make up an example -- if there could have been some way to write that Snape/Harry/Voldemort scene so that this realization doesn't *precede* the sex but rather happens at the sexual climax, when Snape has wrung an orgasm out of Harry, I think the story might have seemed stronger.

because you simply can't have it be porn if you can't identify or empathize with any of the participants except for a feeling of pity and sadness that just keeps building but never goes anywhere.

What? Where did you get that definition? You've never read Justine, have you? That is just relentless and hopeless and monotonous torture, for hundreds of pages, and it has certainly gotten a lot of people off over the centuries. This is just a question of taste.

I like noncon, and frankly, the more violent the better. The idea of getting off on something that the participants aren't supposed to be enjoying doesn't bother me one iota, and never did. And, you know, I've been sexually assaulted myself. I just know how to keep fantasy and reality separate, and this works for me. Doesn't mean others have to like those kinds of stories, but the kinds of issues that you and Cathexys are raising about whether or not the reader is intended to enjoy the smut don't really resonate for me. I know Amanuensis wrote that fic to be hot, and for me it worked. I understand why it wouldn't work for others, though. This is ultimately less a question of craft and more a question of kink, I think.

From:

cathexys.livejournal.com

This is ultimately less a question of craft and more a question of kink, I think.

Yes, I think you're right. I think I need my pain and violence with at least the potential for the victim getting something out of it... As for deSade, same thing. I felt it was exceptionally unsexy and unerotic, but I know that thousands disagree. (~~Now the ethical impetus behind his philosophy is a different matter as both Adorno and Lacan...~~ <-- shut me up *now* :-)

I do like your analysis of why the climactic fuck didn't work emotionally. Yes, I was also mostly invested in the Snape/Harry relation, b/c we see too little about how he and Ron interact. And the realization that his one glimpse of hope has ultimately had to betray him and will do so in the future was horrid...yet didn't seem to affect the following scenes too much...or maybe that was the point?

And maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree *bg* in terms of kinks...i mean, it's interesting what works for some and what for others (though i think a.'s lj needs a warning all of its own after the posts she's had lately :-)