~~ how lame is -this-. heh.

[reenka]

I'm rather embarrassed to think that one day... or now... someone non-fandom could read this stuff and think, "oh my, is this all she thinks about?" and... er... the answer would sort of be "yes and no", but it's close enough to yes that I get wibbly. I spent the weekend talking to addictedkitten about mostly fandom things (at least I'm not alone). I indulged my skills as a traveling beta. We talked about everyone behind their backs (hehehe). It's all good :D

Well, no, I lie. Mostly, we just talked about porn. *laughs* Partly loitering on the steps of a comic store at like, some ungodly hour like 1:30 or something. Dude. We are so cool it hurts.

So Sara tells me (well, not in so many words) it would be cool if I mixed things up and mentioned my "real life" (not that I have any) more. Because then I would be a real person, just like... everyone else? Heh. Yeah. And this would be part of my not-so-sekrit plan to... er... bore everyone to death. Exciting. And yet sad at the same time.

Mostly, I was remembering how Sara insisted that she's Slytherin, and I was like, Dude! You are so not! And she kept saying she was, so eventually I said I supported her choice. But she let me be Ravenclaw 'cause I have issues with being a Hufflepuff (I told you! We are so cool it's hurting me still.) So anyway... this led to my so-called revelation..... *coughs*

There is a number of people who say they're Slytherin in this fandom (you all know who you are), who are so... not. And then there are the myriad quizzes who tell you who you are and people point to them and almost actually believe they've been sorted. And then there's all the confusion about whether the HP characters were correctly sorted (but no! Hermione's a Ravenclaw! Harry's a Slytherin! Neville's a Hufflepuff! etc). So, being brilliantly fascinating as I am, I thought about this on the way home.

It seems almost painfully obvious that you are Sorted into whatever House you want to be Sorted into. I mean, I know the Hat makes a show of picking the House for the student, but in reality, Ron and Harry and Draco were all Sorted specifically according to their desires and/or expectations. I think the case could easily be made that the Hat looks at what motivates them on the conscious preferences level as much or more than at the subconscious aptitudes level.

This would explain why some students don't seem to be "smart enough" or "brave enough" or "cunning enough" (hello, Crabbe) for their House. It would also explain everyone's favorite question of Why Was Tom Riddle In Slytherin Though He's A Halfblood. Clearly, even though the Houses were founded on certain principles, those principles don't count for as much as they did initially, and really the directions one takes in life (and in Hogwarts) are controlled by -choice-. This would make sense with JKR's overall theme better, too. This would also tie in with some sort of "redemption" of Slytherin-as-a-House, simply because it proves that no one's intrinsically -different-, no matter where they are, and it's only their conscious desire to segregate themselves that really influences the resulting separation.

There are no "good" exceptions in Slytherin, but Crabbe or Goyle aren't cunning or all that ambitious, and really, how cunning is Draco. They're shown as sucking anyway, but not because they're so -Slytherin-. Hey, it could be important. Also, maybe this inspires someone to no longer torture themselves over whether Slytherin can accept non-purebloods. I don't think Dumbledore would -allow- a House that didn't, too. This is a matter of publicity keeping the population stable more than anything, it seems to me.

Comments

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

you all know who you are
And so what if I do? Huh? Huh?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heeeeeeeee >:D
*zips lips*

i will keep your sekrit identity if you want me to ;))

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--yeah, I've always thought the Sorting thing was a big case of everyone essentially becoming what they admire. Like when people say Hermione's a Ravenclaw I'm just like...um, no, she's totally Gryffindor. She likes knowledge for the purpose of doing the right thing and being capable and knowing more than other people. She's clearly not somebody who's just obsessed with knowledge for its own sake. Ultimately it's the doing that matters to Hermione, not the theory. Which is why I've always assumed there were plenty of teachers who didn't like her despite her being the "teacher's pet."

I was talking to rpzeal the other day about Harry being in Slytherin and this being some big choice on his part and I always think that's ridiculous. Like there was ever any temptation in Slytherin for Harry--it's the one house he's got totally negative associations with before arriving at the school, it's the house of the guy who killed his parents, it's obviously not the house either of his parents were in. He already wants some payback for them being killed. Yeah, that would be Gryffindor. Really not much to do with bravery as much as wanting to be brave. Slytherins, as Phineas says so wonderfully, are brave but always choose to save themselves. That's what they see as smart so naturally that's Slytherin.

I guess that's what makes it so easy for kids to have House Pride. Everybody's sorted into the house that they think is the thing to which everyone should aspire.

I'm actually kind of interested as to why people who claim they're Slytherin say they are. How do they see the themselves, and how do they see the house that leads to that conclusion, given what we see in the books? I've always been pretty sure I'd be a Ravenclaw, and any quiz I've ever taken has told me that too.:-)

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Slytherin - the house where you cheat to get Slytherin on the quiz, and then believe the quiz has proved you right.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Proves my point exactly! I think.:-)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehehe, I never get tired of squeeing 'cause you have such a dead-on vision of the characters. Heee. Oh yeah, Hermione. *uses her Hermione icon* I don't think of her much, but she does seem to kind of... consume books in the quest for... er... power? Confidence? I'm not sure. It's like she wants it -for- something, she thinks it's -useful-. Yeah.

Also.
MWAHAHAHAHA!! DIE, SLYTHERIN!HARRY FICS, DIIIIIEEEEE~!!
sorry, had to get that out of my system. they really annoy me by now, the way everyone seems to mistake newly-slytherin!Harry for deep-and-dark!Harry. BASTARDS. hee.
Also... mmmmm, vengeful!Harry. He so is. Avenging his parents... that's what he's been -doing-. And Sirius. And like... if he thinks that someone's done him wrong, he definitely wants to -punish- them, without even -wondering- if it's -him- who should do the punishing. It's like... you're evil?! YOU HAVE TO DIE. ehehehe. omg, I'm totally way too hyper right now -.-

Well, the people who -I- know who say they're Slytherin just sort of have an anti-Gryffindor, anti-goody-twoshoes, I'm-only-out-for-myself and I'm-a-bitch-hear-me-rant sort of thing going on. Like Phineas, it's all about being smart & not thinking you're a nice person and not being sentimental, I think, for most people. Also, a lot of those with darker preferences or outlooks on life (jaded, pessimistic, cynical, etc) think that makes them Slytherin.

I think there's most definitely a lot of romanticization of Slytherin going on there-- just as the people who want to be Gryffindor (not that I know many) romanticize -that- House. (It's so cool! Of -course- we're Gryffindor! It's where -Harry- and all the -cool- people are! Yeay Gryffindor! etc.... So yeah, admiration and the desire to be part of the "team" maybe?)

Strangely enough, I've never seen much enthusiasm or romanticization of Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw-- those are like the "oh yeah, I guess I am" Houses. It's the other two that are all gung-ho and insistent. I mean, in a way, I want to be a Gryffindor even though I'm not brave or righteous, just because I think it's cool to be brave and righteous. I'd never want to be a Slytherin not because I'm not cunning or elitist (though I'm not), but because I think those qualities are nothing I'd want to cultivate even if I had them.

People who -are- somewhat snarky or misanthropic or disillusioned kind of seem to enjoy pimping the "darker side" which I guess is Slytherin in this context. Whereas I always thought that Dark For The Sake Of Dark was silly.

Also, being jaded and snarky and unsentimental are -not- requirements or attributes of anything but the -fanon- version of Slytherin, which is I think what most fans think of. I mean, I also think some people self-judge as being heartless and out-for-number-one and amoral or whatever, but most people overestimate that in themselves simply because almost -all- of them (that I know) are kind to their friends and only mildly bitchy to everyone else, in a -cute- way. My -god-, Slytherins are NOT bitchy in a cute way. Gar.

Anyway, mini-rant, sorry, I know I'm not having to convince you or anything. People who overestimate their own "darkness" seem as common as people who overestimate their righteousness. Siiiiiigh.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The other thing that's funny is that people consider Gryffindors goody-two-shoes. Huh? Last I checked they weren't real up on following rules or submitting to authority. Slytherins are more apt to ostentatiously follow the rules, always making sure people know it's for their own advancement. But then, they also seem to follow a lot of actual rules that they impose on themselves and get from their parents.

I loved Phineas and I did think he was proof that at least a few of the ideas of fanon!Slytherins were true--he was wonderfully snarky and to the point but was obviously not "evil" in any sense of the word. He made a show of not caring about things but really did have things he cared about. It was refreshing to see he was basically a person. That's not the way Slytherins have been characterized so far, of course, but I think there are some signs of it. For instance, it always strikes me as odd that we don't see any signs of Slytherins being this constant cut-throat place--you'd expect that in a house all about ambition. Instead they seem to easily sort themselves into hierarchies and keep themselves there. I love the fact that Millicent Bulstrode appeared again in OotP, for instance. In CoS she seems described as a hulking girl, yet there she is as one of them. The Gryff girls, by contrast, seem to all be traditionally pretty.

[liquidwounds.livejournal.com]

OOh this was an interesting post. I've never actually posted a comment here before, so maybe I should not be so rude and introduce myself. Nikki here, I forget how I found your jounrla, probably through someone elses, but I've been reading for a while and felt I should comment on this post because I find it o'so intreguing.

I am going to say I fully agree, about the "you get sorted into where you want to be" theory. Doesn't make much sense any other way, and as you have shown, it makes everything fall into place. I think the hat has some say init all, with it trying to convince harry to go slytherin, but ultimately it's what the person wants that puts it in it's house. Perhaps the hat only has true power over where the student is placed when they are completely unsure of where they wish to be...which I'm sure doesn't happen all that often.

Makes me think though, if students just basically got to choose where they'd want to be, wouldn't you imagine there being an oddly large number of gryffindors? just a thought...I'm sure theres an easy way to do away with that worry. I myself...have no idea what I'd be...I'd love to say Gryffindor...if I could choose that would be my house...who knows...I never trust those quizzes anyhow...

-Nikki

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hi~:)
Yeah, you're right, the Hat does seem to have some influence. I'm not sure how much, and really I'm not sure of anything (even though I may have sounded like it), mostly it's just that it's definitely not like your House placement is defined by your "Slytherinness" or "Gryffindorishness" or whatever, the way so many fans like to label each other's personalities.

Like, "I'm so Slytherin 'cause I'm a bitch and I know it"-- that doesn't quite work for me.
As for everyone wanting to me Gryffindor... hmm. Actually, age probably has something to do with it as well-- what we all want to be -now- is probably different than what we wanted at 11. But regardless, most people -I- know don't want/claim to be Gryffindors-- in fact, that's the rarest House, after Hufflepuff. Heh. Mostly people say they're Ravenclaw or Slytherin (like, either "I'm a smartie" or "I'm a bitch", eheheheh).

I think there's probably a section of fandom who's all "Yeay Gryffindor", but I imagine that's more... er... younger people and non-slashers. Like, the Ron/Hermione shippers & so on, y'know? The ones who think that Draco sucks, except not er.... that way. *laughs*

Okay, stopping now ^^;

~reena

[liquidwounds.livejournal.com]

Hehe, I agree with what you said about the people who are all "Yeah Gryffindor' lol..and I highly enjoyed the Draco sicks...not like that..bit. hehe..my Draco sucks...like that. Oh, to much info? Perhaps, being a slash lover myself, I wish I could say I was a Gryffie, or a Slythie...but I don't know...I just don't know...*sigh* oh well...it's all so fun to think about.

[ex-milkthist86.livejournal.com]

It would also explain everyone's favorite question of Why Was Tom Riddle In Slytherin Though He's A Halfblood.

See, I've always wondered about this, because the question itself implies that everyone in Slytherin is, by and large, a pureblood. Now, that makes sense on the one hand, with Slytherin wanting only purebloods at Hogwarts. But on the other hand, number wise, it doesn't seem to work. We know that most wizards are half-bloods, and accounting for the fact that some that are pureblooded get sorted into other houses (like the Weasleys), there doesn't seem to be enough students left over to fill an entire house. I've always assumed that if someone displays the "personality traits" of a Slytherin they would be sorted there regardless of their blood line, with maybe a warning from the hat (as in: are you sure you want to go into Slytherin? they don't take kindly to half bloods). What are people's general opinions on this? Are all Slytherins purebloods?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't know if people -think- about it that much, but I don't think there's a consensus on this issue regardless. Mostly, it doesn't really bear examining too closely, since obviously it's ridiculous to think it's (still) the Pureblood House even if it was founded that way. I mean, there's more than one reason it wouldn't make sense.

The hat has said different things about what it takes to get into any particular House every year. The only thing that's constant is that the people we know seem to -want- to be where they are and to feel some sort of "House spirit" somehow. So they want to be there, and there's no obvious in-House fighting. I can only assume the whole question of Slytherin=Purebloods(?) to be ill-formed and unnecessary.

We know that most wizards are half-bloods
We do?
Where are you getting this from?
Of course, we don't know -that- much about the wizarding world on this issue, but it seems like if they were so common, there wouldn't be all this prejudice, so it has to be the minority and purebloods in the majority, although they do seem to feel threatened so the numbers must be increasing, I think.

[ex-milkthist86.livejournal.com]

Where are you getting this from?

Er...something Hagrid said back in CoS...*fishes out battered copy*..."Most Wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married muggles we'd've died out." (p100).

But never mind, I can't even remember why I brought that up. Your thoughts on sorting though, very interesting. The whole "House Spirit" concept sounds like the best explanation I've never thought of. You're right, the only thing they all have in common is that they're in the house they wanted to be in, and that would mean that their preferences outweigh their personality traits when it comes to being sorted.

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

I have thought this exactly about the houses for a while - less that it is a matter of having the qualities advertised, and more that it's wanting them. Hence the reason that Slytherin ends up with so many baddies- the impressionistic first years want to be just as romantically evil as their parents.

Also, maybe wanting the qualities is a first step towards having them anyway - if Neville wants to be brave badly enough, he can be brave. If Draco wants to be cunning badly enough, he can be cunning. Etc. (?)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it's as simple as wanting=having, I think you need to have potential for growth and you need to have the author want to give you that potential (heh). Neville, for example, was always a red herring in a way, because JKR must've always known he was going to be in the prophecy and have to have a larger role and so on. Draco, on the other hand, always seemed slated for ignominy. She just likes to use him as someone for Harry to easily grind into dust. I dunno WHY actually. It's fun(?!)
No, okay, he's actually a useful plot-device being the Death-Eater's Son and Snape's Pet and Source of Unreliable Info and Small-time Angst and so on ^^;

Hehehehe, romantically evil. Yeah :D
And the Gryffindors want to be romantically badass too, they just have a different idea of badass.
OMG, I'm a Gryffindor/Slytherin shipper. Like. The two Houses. Are obviously made for each other. Dude. heeeeeee

[oik.livejournal.com]

GOD DAMN IT! IT DELETED MY POST!

But it was basically about how you're right about those quizzes, because I took one and it said I was in Slytherin and you'd probably agree with me in saying that I'm not a slytherin. And it went into some thing about how it might not necessarily have been what they wanted, but I'm too tired to re-write it. I need to go back to doing my chemistry homework anyway....

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hmm, now I'm curious... because while it not being what they wanted doesn't seem to fit any characterizations as they are -now-, it would certainly be interesting if it did happen. seems almost like an easy way out (especially if it's a slytherin), but the reason for why they got Sorted without wanting would then be all-important, i guess....

[oik.livejournal.com]

Well, why not? It could be that the traits found in the particular Slytherins do not have to include "cunning." Perhaps all you have to do is share that belief that purebloods are better. Tom Riddle wasn't pureblooded, but he still though they were better, and sought to murder all those who weren't, did he not? ::shrugs:: But we're all guessing, and perhaps reading a little too much into it.

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

I can see you as Hufflepuff. :-? I've often been told I should be Gryffindor, but sometimes I think I am far too Weasley for my own good.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee, i -know-. my hufflepuffness is like a harry's slytherinness-- i would have to scream at the sorting hat to let me gooo, get me awaaayyyy. though where would i go, i don't know. the gryffindors are way too team-spirited, the slytherins are way too dense, the ravenclaws are way too obsessed and the hufflepuffs... well, they're way too yellow. woe.

also, it's probably a sign of being weasley-like to want to go where all the -other- weasleys are >:D but yeah. fred & george & you. i can see it :D

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Haha! I really like your take on this subject. I agree with you, I think, even though I don't really know anybody who's militant about being in some house or other.

I like the idea that House depends on choice - it explains a lot of the Sorting Hat's strange decisions. And futher complicates JKR's moral message, which seems to be, you can choose your own destiny, and if you choose evil here's a house full of other evil people to hang out with and be like.

Anyway - I'll be a militant Ravenclaw! I wouldn't have it any other way...and...um...I like blue?

*is silly*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hmmm... That's rather interesting-- Slytherin being "evil". I dunno if even JKR means it to be, or does she? Why -do- the first years want Slytherin? I mean, it seems partly because their parents were there, like with Draco-- same as with the Weasleys... but what about the non-purebloods? Why do -they- pick Slytherin?

Also, I just realized my idea doesn't quite work because some first-years don't have enough information about the Houses-- like Harry did only by the accident of immediately making friends with Ron and meeting Draco, and Hermione knew because she's read all about it, but I'm sure that's not the norm. So for a clueless students, what preferences could they have either way?

I can't see the Slytherins wanting their House because it's evil -or- because it's "the pureblood House" -in those terms-. There are no worthwhile Slytherins that we've seen so far except er... Phineas(?) so it's hard to say-- it seems maybe personality -does- seem to have a heavy influence there. Like, you can -choose- to be "good" but unless you actively do, "evil" is a default? I dunno.

I think the Slytherin Question is basically needing to be addressed by JKR rather than me at this point ;)

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Heh. I tend to slip into fatalistic patterns about literature. I sit here thinking, well, he couldn't not meet Ron, could he? He has to be in the good house, being the hero.

I think it has a lot to do with family - the exception being the Patil sisters - and choice probably factors into it, because, hey, if you want to be brave, is the Hat going to say, No, settle down, be a Hufflepuff?

Ooh! Ooh! Theory: JKR is moving towards eventual house unity by slowly subverting our assumptions about Houses. Slytherins are evil, except Snape - Harry might be a Slytherin, temptation ideas there - Hufflepuffs are incompetant, Ravenclaws are aloof. But Gryffindors are not all perfect: see flaws of Peter, Sirius, even Dumbledore. Hufflepuffs perhaps not so loyal: see Zacherias. So we have Harry the pseudo-Slytherin; Hermione who should have been Ravenclaw; Neville who is not brave, but Hufflepuffianly loyal; Ron, also loyal. Together they represent all the houses, within Gryffindor. Therefore: they unite in friendship to overcome obstacles, as symbols of eventual House reunification!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I can see how she's been subverting House identification (though it's interesting to pick Snape and Harry, neither of whom are actually -in- Slytherin currently as students)... but then you go into the people who're "not really Gryffindor-like" in Gryffindor.... So like, subverting the House system from within Gryffindor...?

Aahahah if they kill off all the other students, I guess you have the seeds of all the rest in their own House...? :/
Though I doubt she'd do that. Though I really liked sistermagpie's explanation that Hermione belongs in Gryffindor because she's not into knowledge for the sake of knowledge, she wants to -use- it to -change- things. She's all, "I've got things to do, house-elves to save". And Ron's... Ron....

Hmm. I think it's perhaps unfair to focus on this one House quality to define the House, considering the Hat keeps saying different things. I dunno if bravery is really the sum of "what it takes" to be Gryffindor. You quite obviously don't have that many brave people, and most Gryffindors aren't that brave. It seems to be more about recklessness, adventurous/mischievous spirit, selfishness combined with protectiveness, the desire to -do- rather than -be-, thick-headedness, stubborn determination, self-righteousness (hello, Hermione). Bravery is like... too simple and too complex a word at the same time, I think, and it can only really apply during times of high conflict. I dunno if Ron is defined by his loyalty, btw.

I think maybe Ron's... too selfish and ambitious and impulsive to be the Hufflepuff sort of loyal-- he's like... recklessly self-sacrificing, but not in any sort of stable manner. He seems led by his instincts and whatever emotional force of attachment is mainly driving him at the time. Hmmm. Wish I had a better grasp on Ron, man.

*ponders*

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Ah. Yes. I don't suppose Ron really is loyal, so much. I was just thinking of him as The Sidekick, instead of as himself. :)

I'm sure you could theorize how everyone has the inherent qualities of their house. I'm confused over JKRs messages anyway, at the moment, what with the subversion. The Slytherins seems to be ambition=bad. Yet bravery=recklessness=Harry in lots of trouble. And if love is the key? I'd imagine Hufflepuffs were more about the love. I don't know.

I often wonder if the whole 'Hat' thing is just a strange tradition, like pureblood families and house elves, kept in place by the Board of Governors, and Dumbledore would really rather be rid of it, since all it does is divide people and force them into exclusive societies, and all the other messages Dumbledore and the Hat itself give us are about unity and standing together.

On the other hand, I say this, but if I was going to a fancy wizarding school, I would probably be most comfortable among people of my own kind, er, people who thought about things the same way I did.