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reenkaI wrote this whole bunch of stuff on Dark!Harry (one of my favorite subjects) on Aja’s entry today, and figured it would be a waste of sorts if I didn’t save it, so here it is.
Overall, of course I would never blame Voldemort for Harry's personality or imply that Harry's love is effortless and pure. In canon there are elements that point to Voldemort being responsible for some of Harry's darkness, and I wouldn't even call it that-- but the whole "the serpent within him" theme in OoTP, that was Voldemort. Mostly, I don't even think Harry IS dark, depending what you mean by "dark". Is he Voldemort-type dark? No. The part of him that's Voldemort-type dark, that's Voldemort in him, and Harry fights it off.
The part of him that's Harry-type dark-- the violence, anger, refusal to forgive, stubbornness, snap judgments, his quick temper in general, his way of closing himself off from people-- that's all a different sort of thing, and it's all Harry. That's why there's a huge difference, I feel, between how he attacked Malfoy (angrily, without thinking, with his whole body), and the way he attacked Bellatrix (angrily, with his emotions, and yet his emotions weren't of that "right sort"-- righteous anger instead of what, evil anger?), compared to the way he almost wanted to hurt Dumbledore-- it felt like it was outside him, just a desire to -destroy- without even much emotion involved, completely incomprehensible, almost. Now THAT'S Voldemort.
I don't think Harry wills himself to love anyone-- he either does or he doesn't, and if anyone confronts his certainty in that regard, he lashes out at them. He doesn't take back his love, and he doesn't give it lightly, but if he gives it, there it is, permanently. Harry doesn't change his mind very easily.
I never meant to say Harry's blessed with it, that's just silly. My personal opinion is that Harry's strength is his relationships and ability to depend and draw the best out of people (Ron, Hermione, Luna, Sirius). He inspires people; he makes them want to follow him. He makes them love -him- and he allows them to help him be a better person. He chooses the right side, in the end, I think, because it's anti-Dursley (controlling, unaffectionate, mundane) and because they show him more love. Draco never showed him love or compassion, so Harry's never had a reason to pick him.
Anyway, Harry's more -drawn- to love than -radiates- it. But I think at some point he -will- and that's probably what has to defeat Voldemort. But that's just a guess >:D
Speaking of Harry casting Crucio, one of those major turning-points in OoTP...
He -didn't-. He -couldn't-. Not for some little reason, but because he can't wish true harm upon another, even if he hates them. Harry's innate -goodness- is -just- as important as his innate recklessness and sarcasm and disregard for authority. Which is what it is. Harry's got some Voldemort in him, but mostly he's still "just Harry", who's a lovely boy with a temper :D
See.... his "darkness" is mostly anger & frustration & the loneliness of most people singling him out as this symbol and expecting things from him.
I guess I’m just enamored with Rowling’s (admittedly semi-sappy) idea that Harry’s' greatest strength is love.
Book quoting time!
'Aaaaaah . . . did you love him, little baby Potter?'
Hatred rose in Harry such as he had never known before; he flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed, 'Crucio!'
Bellatrix screamed: the spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe and shriek with pain as Neville had — she was already back on her feet, breathless, no longer laughing. Harry dodged behind the golden fountain again. Her counter-spell hit the head of the handsome wizard, which was blown off and landed twenty feet away, gouging long scratches into the wooden floor.
'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it — righteous anger won't hurt me for long [...]
So.
That one sentence was essential for me:
You need to mean them, Potter!
I too, was all choked up and -shocked- and heartbroken when Harry cast that curse-- it was really a new moment, and yes, he lost any remaining innocence he had, and oh god, Harry......... wah. *tries to block out emotion as best she can*
Yes, I was shocked and pained and upset that Harry -cast- it to start with. And I do think that's a major turning point.... but it wasn't a question of keeping it up (and okay, so I’m trusting Bellatrix but she's our only source of info, here). so... I don't think Harry will always make the "right choice"-- in canon, as far as I can see, he tends to go by his instincts and emotions-- protectiveness, curiosity, anger and competitiveness, usually, and even if it seems like they lead to mistakes sometimes (and they do), in the end his heart is in the right place and that's what seems to count.
While I don't know if "born good" is -my- philosophy..... I dunno, as far as the text itself. On the one hand, Rowling seems to be saying that it's our choices that shape us-- beginning in the first book with Dumbledore's little speech to Harry. On the other hand, some people seem to always make the wrong choices (Riddle, Malfoy, etcetc). Harry makes mistakes, even in terms of seeing who's worthy of respect/admiration and who isn't-- biggest example being Sirius-- but in the end, when it counts, it's Harry who makes the unconscious moral decision-- and so far, it -has- been unconscious.
I don't think he -decided- not to hurt Sirius -or- Bellatrix. Quoting PoA....
Harry stared down at Black and Crookshanks, his grip tightening on the wand. So what if he had to kill the cat too? It was in league with Black.... If it was prepared to die, trying to protect Black, that wasn't Harry's business.... If Black wanted to save it, that only proved he cared more for Crookshanks than for Harry's parents....
Harry raised the wand. Now was the moment to do it. Now was the moment to avenge his mother and father. He was going to kill Black. He had to kill Black. This was his chance....
The seconds lengthened. And still Harry stood frozen there, wand poised, Black staring up at him, Crookshanks on his chest. Ron's ragged breathing came from near the bed; Hermione was quite silent.
And then came a new sound -
Muffled footsteps were echoing up through the floor -- someone was moving downstairs.
"WE'RE UP HERE!" Hermione screamed suddenly. "WE'RE UP HERE -- SIRIUS BLACK - QUICK!"
Black made a startled movement that almost dislodged Crookshanks; Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his head -- but the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't done it.
The door of the room burst open in a shower of red sparks and Harry wheeled around as Professor Lupin came hurtling into the room, his face bloodless, his wand raised and ready. His eyes flickered over Ron, lying on the floor, over Hermione, cowering next to the door, to Harry, standing there with his wand covering Black, and then to Black himself, crumpled and bleeding at Harry's feet.
"Expelliarmus!" Lupin shouted.
Harry's wand flew once more out of his hand; so did the two Hermione was holding. Lupin caught them all deftly, then moved into the room, staring at Black, who still had Crookshanks lying protectively across his chest.
Harry stood there, feeling suddenly empty. He hadn't done it. His nerve had failed him. Black was going to be handed back to the dementors.
Anyway. he kind of means to kill Sirius, but he kind of can't, and he doesn't know why, and then the choice is taken away from him, which he never really -makes- to start with. Somehow, it's the right choice, almost by accident. A lot of things seem to happen either by accident or because Harry's lucky or because his emotions aren't "dark" enough to really lead him somewhere irretrievably bad. He doesn't mean to hurt even though he's temperamental enough to want to. Er. It’s a conscious vs. unconscious thing, but I’m not sure. Might think on it more.
As far as Harry's greatest strength being love, I’m just -hoping- it is and quoting Dumbledore.
*feels like a dork*
It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you.
So anyway, I don't think he -chooses- to be good. He didn't choose to be Gryffindor (assuming that's "good"-- he just chose not to be "like Malfoy" and instead to be "like Ron"-- Harry has a very relativistic moral system, really).
I never really meant that he's a messiah figure, though that quote by Dumbledore certainly makes me wonder, heh. I definitely wouldn't (and haven't) claimed that he -feels- unconditional love towards anyone at this point, but it's entirely possible that his greatest potential is in that area, and that is my main interpretation of what -Dumbledore- thinks, anyway. 'cause clearly if Voldemort could be beaten with magic, Dumbledore would be the one to beat him, being the most powerful wizard. The books are careful to say that it's -Dumbledore-, not Harry, who's the strongest wizard in the world. And I think that that's how it'll stay throughout, though that's conjecture.
As far as knowing who he is being Harry's greatest strength.... Heh. Well, that's kinda scary, 'cause Harry definitely -doesn't-. he knows who he doesn't -want- to be, and he knows what he'd -like- to be (maybe), but who he is probably one of the greatest mysteries of both his life and most other people's~:)
I like the idea that when we're motivated by love we do the right thing because we -want- to. I agree, and I wasn't implying that Harry had heretofore been motivated by love-- I was merely saying that the text seems to be setting him up to eventually triumph by somehow calling upon his inner goodness, sort of the way the mirror gave him the philosopher's stone in the first book 'cause he was pure enough not to want it, or something. Not sure, here. But of course, he's definitely not there yet. That’s his -journey-, I think. y'know? ^^;
I didn't mean he's dark (whatever -that- means) because of Voldemort. I meant that Harry's only "dark" (by my definition) because he's angry and frustrated and lonely-- he's not evil, like Tom Riddle seems to have been. he -does- have emotional leakage from Voldemort according to canon, as when he looks at Dumbledore in OoTP and feels the "snake" inside him, and that's what I meant. -Some- of Harry's darkness -is- Voldemort's because their mind linkage is basically canonical. I’m not saying that's part of Harry's personality, but it -is- clearly -there-.
And most definitely, of course, Harry's greatest triumph will be overcoming his own darkness-- that is the only possible struggle I can even -see- for him. That’s why he's gotten -darker- in book 5, that's what he's being prepared for, obviously. He being tested and bent this way and that, and his anger and vulnerability keeps rising, yes (I mean, the possession by Voldemort was a dead tip-off. of course, also note that the possession failed, even right after Sirius's death when Harry's emotions were running high. Sirius was still a -positive- influence on him, clearly, since Voldemort couldn't "bear" Harry's emotional state when Harry thought of him.)
I would never say that Harry's a child of pure unadulterated love, though amusingly enough, he -is-, in the literal sense. That’s why he's alive-- 'cause his mother loved him enough to die for him (that's the canonical explanation so far, anyway). But no, not in the way you mean it-- he's not saintly, obviously. All of OoTP was reiterating just how fallible and angry and insensitive Harry was/is. I mean, he's basically an ass to everyone. No child of love here. But I don't mean it shows in his actions yet, anyway. I suppose it's just that ineffable -something- in him. I dunno. The books haven't gotten to exploring this yet, really, so there are only hints~:)
So yeah, there's clearly an internal struggle, and naturally that's the -point- of the books. He -is- struggling and yet... he -has- to get there in order to "win" and -survive- even. If he doesn't let go of or more likely, -transform- his darkness in some way, he will die because either he does or Voldemort does.
I think one day, Harry can and will be able to will himself not to hurt someone-- I think at -this- point, he just -can't-, really. He can beat up Draco and be insensitive and cruel to his friends, but he can't really -torture- someone. the books -are- about this struggle of will, but meanwhile, Harry is still making the "right" choices, more or less, and I think that's more innate than learned-- or at least, happily coincidental :-/ heh.
I don't think Harry -loves-, really, in any active manner. And yet there's -something- about him, isn't there, already, that makes him especially "worthy", for lack of a better term. I dunno what it is. I think it's the process of finding out that we're all engaged in.
~~
EDIT - funniest LoTR captions -ever-. Also, this. Except that's a send-up of H/D fanfic writing cliches, actually.
also:
Gorgey-British-Longhaired-Guy-Next-to-Me: Isn't that a twib??
AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT A `TWIB' IS! WOE!!1
and omg, I can listen to a British guy say.... anything at all..... forever. And ever. and Ever. *pants* He says British like, "Bri'ish". *CRIES* I WANT TO MOVE NOW. NO, I MEAN -NOW-.
Overall, of course I would never blame Voldemort for Harry's personality or imply that Harry's love is effortless and pure. In canon there are elements that point to Voldemort being responsible for some of Harry's darkness, and I wouldn't even call it that-- but the whole "the serpent within him" theme in OoTP, that was Voldemort. Mostly, I don't even think Harry IS dark, depending what you mean by "dark". Is he Voldemort-type dark? No. The part of him that's Voldemort-type dark, that's Voldemort in him, and Harry fights it off.
The part of him that's Harry-type dark-- the violence, anger, refusal to forgive, stubbornness, snap judgments, his quick temper in general, his way of closing himself off from people-- that's all a different sort of thing, and it's all Harry. That's why there's a huge difference, I feel, between how he attacked Malfoy (angrily, without thinking, with his whole body), and the way he attacked Bellatrix (angrily, with his emotions, and yet his emotions weren't of that "right sort"-- righteous anger instead of what, evil anger?), compared to the way he almost wanted to hurt Dumbledore-- it felt like it was outside him, just a desire to -destroy- without even much emotion involved, completely incomprehensible, almost. Now THAT'S Voldemort.
I don't think Harry wills himself to love anyone-- he either does or he doesn't, and if anyone confronts his certainty in that regard, he lashes out at them. He doesn't take back his love, and he doesn't give it lightly, but if he gives it, there it is, permanently. Harry doesn't change his mind very easily.
I never meant to say Harry's blessed with it, that's just silly. My personal opinion is that Harry's strength is his relationships and ability to depend and draw the best out of people (Ron, Hermione, Luna, Sirius). He inspires people; he makes them want to follow him. He makes them love -him- and he allows them to help him be a better person. He chooses the right side, in the end, I think, because it's anti-Dursley (controlling, unaffectionate, mundane) and because they show him more love. Draco never showed him love or compassion, so Harry's never had a reason to pick him.
Anyway, Harry's more -drawn- to love than -radiates- it. But I think at some point he -will- and that's probably what has to defeat Voldemort. But that's just a guess >:D
Speaking of Harry casting Crucio, one of those major turning-points in OoTP...
He -didn't-. He -couldn't-. Not for some little reason, but because he can't wish true harm upon another, even if he hates them. Harry's innate -goodness- is -just- as important as his innate recklessness and sarcasm and disregard for authority. Which is what it is. Harry's got some Voldemort in him, but mostly he's still "just Harry", who's a lovely boy with a temper :D
See.... his "darkness" is mostly anger & frustration & the loneliness of most people singling him out as this symbol and expecting things from him.
I guess I’m just enamored with Rowling’s (admittedly semi-sappy) idea that Harry’s' greatest strength is love.
Book quoting time!
'Aaaaaah . . . did you love him, little baby Potter?'
Hatred rose in Harry such as he had never known before; he flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed, 'Crucio!'
Bellatrix screamed: the spell had knocked her off her feet, but she did not writhe and shriek with pain as Neville had — she was already back on her feet, breathless, no longer laughing. Harry dodged behind the golden fountain again. Her counter-spell hit the head of the handsome wizard, which was blown off and landed twenty feet away, gouging long scratches into the wooden floor.
'Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy?' she yelled. She had abandoned her baby voice now. 'You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really want to cause pain — to enjoy it — righteous anger won't hurt me for long [...]
So.
That one sentence was essential for me:
You need to mean them, Potter!
I too, was all choked up and -shocked- and heartbroken when Harry cast that curse-- it was really a new moment, and yes, he lost any remaining innocence he had, and oh god, Harry......... wah. *tries to block out emotion as best she can*
Yes, I was shocked and pained and upset that Harry -cast- it to start with. And I do think that's a major turning point.... but it wasn't a question of keeping it up (and okay, so I’m trusting Bellatrix but she's our only source of info, here). so... I don't think Harry will always make the "right choice"-- in canon, as far as I can see, he tends to go by his instincts and emotions-- protectiveness, curiosity, anger and competitiveness, usually, and even if it seems like they lead to mistakes sometimes (and they do), in the end his heart is in the right place and that's what seems to count.
While I don't know if "born good" is -my- philosophy..... I dunno, as far as the text itself. On the one hand, Rowling seems to be saying that it's our choices that shape us-- beginning in the first book with Dumbledore's little speech to Harry. On the other hand, some people seem to always make the wrong choices (Riddle, Malfoy, etcetc). Harry makes mistakes, even in terms of seeing who's worthy of respect/admiration and who isn't-- biggest example being Sirius-- but in the end, when it counts, it's Harry who makes the unconscious moral decision-- and so far, it -has- been unconscious.
I don't think he -decided- not to hurt Sirius -or- Bellatrix. Quoting PoA....
Harry stared down at Black and Crookshanks, his grip tightening on the wand. So what if he had to kill the cat too? It was in league with Black.... If it was prepared to die, trying to protect Black, that wasn't Harry's business.... If Black wanted to save it, that only proved he cared more for Crookshanks than for Harry's parents....
Harry raised the wand. Now was the moment to do it. Now was the moment to avenge his mother and father. He was going to kill Black. He had to kill Black. This was his chance....
The seconds lengthened. And still Harry stood frozen there, wand poised, Black staring up at him, Crookshanks on his chest. Ron's ragged breathing came from near the bed; Hermione was quite silent.
And then came a new sound -
Muffled footsteps were echoing up through the floor -- someone was moving downstairs.
"WE'RE UP HERE!" Hermione screamed suddenly. "WE'RE UP HERE -- SIRIUS BLACK - QUICK!"
Black made a startled movement that almost dislodged Crookshanks; Harry gripped his wand convulsively -- Do it now! said a voice in his head -- but the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't done it.
The door of the room burst open in a shower of red sparks and Harry wheeled around as Professor Lupin came hurtling into the room, his face bloodless, his wand raised and ready. His eyes flickered over Ron, lying on the floor, over Hermione, cowering next to the door, to Harry, standing there with his wand covering Black, and then to Black himself, crumpled and bleeding at Harry's feet.
"Expelliarmus!" Lupin shouted.
Harry's wand flew once more out of his hand; so did the two Hermione was holding. Lupin caught them all deftly, then moved into the room, staring at Black, who still had Crookshanks lying protectively across his chest.
Harry stood there, feeling suddenly empty. He hadn't done it. His nerve had failed him. Black was going to be handed back to the dementors.
Anyway. he kind of means to kill Sirius, but he kind of can't, and he doesn't know why, and then the choice is taken away from him, which he never really -makes- to start with. Somehow, it's the right choice, almost by accident. A lot of things seem to happen either by accident or because Harry's lucky or because his emotions aren't "dark" enough to really lead him somewhere irretrievably bad. He doesn't mean to hurt even though he's temperamental enough to want to. Er. It’s a conscious vs. unconscious thing, but I’m not sure. Might think on it more.
As far as Harry's greatest strength being love, I’m just -hoping- it is and quoting Dumbledore.
*feels like a dork*
It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you.
So anyway, I don't think he -chooses- to be good. He didn't choose to be Gryffindor (assuming that's "good"-- he just chose not to be "like Malfoy" and instead to be "like Ron"-- Harry has a very relativistic moral system, really).
I never really meant that he's a messiah figure, though that quote by Dumbledore certainly makes me wonder, heh. I definitely wouldn't (and haven't) claimed that he -feels- unconditional love towards anyone at this point, but it's entirely possible that his greatest potential is in that area, and that is my main interpretation of what -Dumbledore- thinks, anyway. 'cause clearly if Voldemort could be beaten with magic, Dumbledore would be the one to beat him, being the most powerful wizard. The books are careful to say that it's -Dumbledore-, not Harry, who's the strongest wizard in the world. And I think that that's how it'll stay throughout, though that's conjecture.
As far as knowing who he is being Harry's greatest strength.... Heh. Well, that's kinda scary, 'cause Harry definitely -doesn't-. he knows who he doesn't -want- to be, and he knows what he'd -like- to be (maybe), but who he is probably one of the greatest mysteries of both his life and most other people's~:)
I like the idea that when we're motivated by love we do the right thing because we -want- to. I agree, and I wasn't implying that Harry had heretofore been motivated by love-- I was merely saying that the text seems to be setting him up to eventually triumph by somehow calling upon his inner goodness, sort of the way the mirror gave him the philosopher's stone in the first book 'cause he was pure enough not to want it, or something. Not sure, here. But of course, he's definitely not there yet. That’s his -journey-, I think. y'know? ^^;
I didn't mean he's dark (whatever -that- means) because of Voldemort. I meant that Harry's only "dark" (by my definition) because he's angry and frustrated and lonely-- he's not evil, like Tom Riddle seems to have been. he -does- have emotional leakage from Voldemort according to canon, as when he looks at Dumbledore in OoTP and feels the "snake" inside him, and that's what I meant. -Some- of Harry's darkness -is- Voldemort's because their mind linkage is basically canonical. I’m not saying that's part of Harry's personality, but it -is- clearly -there-.
And most definitely, of course, Harry's greatest triumph will be overcoming his own darkness-- that is the only possible struggle I can even -see- for him. That’s why he's gotten -darker- in book 5, that's what he's being prepared for, obviously. He being tested and bent this way and that, and his anger and vulnerability keeps rising, yes (I mean, the possession by Voldemort was a dead tip-off. of course, also note that the possession failed, even right after Sirius's death when Harry's emotions were running high. Sirius was still a -positive- influence on him, clearly, since Voldemort couldn't "bear" Harry's emotional state when Harry thought of him.)
I would never say that Harry's a child of pure unadulterated love, though amusingly enough, he -is-, in the literal sense. That’s why he's alive-- 'cause his mother loved him enough to die for him (that's the canonical explanation so far, anyway). But no, not in the way you mean it-- he's not saintly, obviously. All of OoTP was reiterating just how fallible and angry and insensitive Harry was/is. I mean, he's basically an ass to everyone. No child of love here. But I don't mean it shows in his actions yet, anyway. I suppose it's just that ineffable -something- in him. I dunno. The books haven't gotten to exploring this yet, really, so there are only hints~:)
So yeah, there's clearly an internal struggle, and naturally that's the -point- of the books. He -is- struggling and yet... he -has- to get there in order to "win" and -survive- even. If he doesn't let go of or more likely, -transform- his darkness in some way, he will die because either he does or Voldemort does.
I think one day, Harry can and will be able to will himself not to hurt someone-- I think at -this- point, he just -can't-, really. He can beat up Draco and be insensitive and cruel to his friends, but he can't really -torture- someone. the books -are- about this struggle of will, but meanwhile, Harry is still making the "right" choices, more or less, and I think that's more innate than learned-- or at least, happily coincidental :-/ heh.
I don't think Harry -loves-, really, in any active manner. And yet there's -something- about him, isn't there, already, that makes him especially "worthy", for lack of a better term. I dunno what it is. I think it's the process of finding out that we're all engaged in.
~~
EDIT - funniest LoTR captions -ever-. Also, this. Except that's a send-up of H/D fanfic writing cliches, actually.
also:
Gorgey-British-Longhaired-Guy-Next-to-Me: Isn't that a twib??
AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT A `TWIB' IS! WOE!!1
and omg, I can listen to a British guy say.... anything at all..... forever. And ever. and Ever. *pants* He says British like, "Bri'ish". *CRIES* I WANT TO MOVE NOW. NO, I MEAN -NOW-.
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Date: 2003-09-24 05:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-24 08:07 pm (UTC)Oh, the joy of glottal stops. :D
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Date: 2003-09-25 06:09 am (UTC)