~~ really stupid linguistic wibbling...

[reenka]

am i like, the only one that finds the word "gays" kind of offensive?

i don't know what it is, i'm stumped if i try to find a reasonable explanation. it just seems like... i dunno. icky. like something pc-type people would use about "those people with that lifestyle that are really quite nice, and they're normal, actually", and yet... why? it's a perfectly valid plural form of "gay" (which by the way, i'm also not in love with, but am okay with). it's like there's some nuance of usage, but a certain segment of the population..... i dunno!

has anyone else noticed? am i insane?

no matter -what- context i find it in, no matter -what- the person is saying, if they use "gays" as plural, i flinch. it puzzles me, but i suppose there is a possibility that it's not a complete idiosyncrasy. also, "a homosexual" connotates a certain... er... intellectualization of the idea that might be veiling distate, often enough, but i can differentiate between the use of this for "i'm using very formal language for everything" and just some throw-away use, which sets off subliminal alarms. like i said, just "gay" is fine, though it acquires... a weird tinge for me if it's -continuously- used to -describe- someone. as in, "i'm gay" and "that gay man" and "i'm not gay". it's just like... using any epithet would bother me in this way, like, "i'm a woman" and "that woman" and "the woman said". you're obsessing that it's a woman; why?

but the "gays" usage doesn't need to be repeated, as i said. it just connotates "them" to me. like, i'm well aware it's used as a self-label most of the time, too, or is it? i mean... is this a british thing or an american thing? i mean, in america, there's the "gay, bisexual & trans alliance" or the "rainbow alliance" in school-- they don't call themselves queer or anything. sigh. i'm baffled. in the news and media they say "homosexuals", never queers (since it used to be a disparaging term), and, more rarely, "gays".
    perhaps i've become sensitized through fanfic. in the sorts of fics/contexts where "gays" or even "gay" is used most often in hp fic, i feel there's a certain... flat-footedness, a certain amount of stereotyping and ignorance and perhaps even slight homophobia i can detect. it's all very subtextual and subtle, but i really think it's there. i can trace a definite correlation in the fics that feel "off" overall in terms of queerness portrayal and the fics that would use the term "gays". and er... i can't really draw a conclusion except to say, "huh."

on a contradictory and futile note, saying "queers" bothers me too. heh.
    actually, this is possibly related to how you don't exactly say "straights", do you. you say "heterosexuals", but only in a very specific context. you say you're "straight" (singular) but not plural so much. this is probably a part of why it bothers me.
    "gay men" and "gay women" is okay. "so-and-so is gay, btw" is okay-- i suppose because it's an adjective rather than a noun at that point. hmm.
    (and all of this does little to address barb's rather interesting essay on the possibilities of seeing harry as metaphorically `gay' within canon, and the use of metaphor in the hp books to denote disenfranchised groups).

Comments

Hm.

[mhari.livejournal.com]

To me, it's that a noun is a hell of a lot more definitive than an adjective, and it seems like the kind of people who use "gay" as a noun are the kind of people who think gay trumps human.

That said, there are instances that don't bug me, like... if someone feels the need to delineate "gay and lesbian", then it's just more wieldy to say "gays and lesbians" than "gay and lesbian people".

But, yeah. I hear where you're coming from.

Re: Hm.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*grins*
yeah, exactly. it's this sense that 'well, these are the gays'. 'these are the tigers'. 'these are the lions'. gaaah, it really makes me angry for some reason.

i'm just wondering if it's a circle of usage in some sort of context or if it reflects upon the individual :-L

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

What do you use, then?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

i don't often find i have to refer to the queer population en masse, i really don't. in my stories, i don't tend to label anyone as gay or straight, though i think i've had a character say "i like boys too".
"the others like me".
"other gay & lesbians."
"other queer folk/people"
in semi-official writing.
"queer folk" in semi-humorous, maybe. heh
there's a whole big lot of words for gay (most of them admittedly disparaging), and they're cute-- and i do like queers more.
in stories or when i write whatever i feel like, i'd say fags before i say gays, strangely enough, if a gay character is speaking, he can say it.
lesbians is fine, actually.
"gay men"
"the gay population"
"gay community"
blah blah blahbbity blah -.-

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

I think I see what you mean, in a very abstract and I have no idea why sort of way. Hmm. It just sounds different. Gays. As if it is used offensively a lot, so it is getting a bit of a connotation? I don't know - I'm not making any sense. *g*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ahahah the answer is at hand!!!

behold!
"gays" is grammatically incorrect, for it is wrong to pluralize adjectives.

eureka!! :))

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

...unless you're French. :D

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

Oh, and, a post just appeared and disappeared on your page. Did you delete it? Weird.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

it was this:
i'm thinking of a story about a man who always said goodbye before he said hello.

that way, he felt, he could be pre-emptive: cover all his bases, avoid misunderstandings.

"just so we're clear on this: you're going to leave me and it's going to hurt and i'm going to resent you for awhile. but nice to meet you."

this man wore shabby clothing and went to get the post on friday mornings, never checking his mail at any other time. he tied his shoelaces 5 times a day, whether or not they needed it. he liked checkered pants and had a collection of odd hats for when he went to play chess with his cousin melba, who had crooked teeth.

he lived to the old, old age of 104. no one remembered him at the end, and at his grave-stone it said,

"hello. no need to be sorry, i'm already over you."
~~
i figured no one would be interested ^^;

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

I thought it was lovely, and when I went to reply it had been deleted! Was v. confused - all your fault. *g*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heh. thanks.
i guess i'm paranoid about not writing things people don't want to see (ie, non-hp things). like, 'cause people don't reply to things if they're too ...er... i dunno. i know what works and i'm a comment whore, apparently. *shame*

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

Muaha. Don't be nervous - we love you. :D I wouldn't know what being a comment whore is like, as it takes getting comments for that - *grin*

[crimson-stained.livejournal.com]

if "gays" is offensive to you, then i am wondering: is women, blacks, asians, whites, etc sort of words also offensive? you're justifying your feelings by saying this makes the gay community seem apart from others. And yes they are people, and yes they are equal to everyone else (AND SHOULD BE! GAY MARRIAGES!...(am not sure which word to insert here) IN ARMY!)...but they are still different.

Gay people have a different lifestyle, they have a different culture and they have a different way of expressing themselves.

This is where the pride comes in. If you melt gay people in the melting pot then there's nothing that sets them apart. And it'd be great if it were like that, but there are roots to hold on to.

Am not sure if i'm explaining appropriately. My brother (i_lift_shirts) is saying to me:

"As a gay man in todays world, i actually do refer to straight people as "straights" (hahaha. and notice what a square label they have while we have happy joyful gay label). it's not offensive because that's who i am. I'm asian. I'm gay. And it's part of who i am. I have enough sense of pride to know that when they say gays i can just go, "hey! that's me!"

the only word that should be truly offensive is faggots. (unless another gay person says it). a straight person says "faggot" is like a white person saying, "nigger" it's offensive.

as to queers, i can understand as queer=weird, and ho! i am not weird. just gay."

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

yah, whites/asians/etc is offensive though women is not offensive because it's an old, old part of the language. it's offensive to some "womyn" but i'm not one of them. "japanese" or "russians" isn't offensive because it is merely an adjective to describe being from a certain country. as i said "gay" itself is fine. "the gays" is not fine.

this sense of "they are different, with a different culture, etc", while valid because it is true that these days a lot of queer culture is separate, has not always been so. for ages and ages gay people were just people. there didn't seem to be "gay culture" in ancient greece: there was just culture, as far as i can see. i am not part of gay culture, but i am queer. i may not be "good enough" to be "truly queer" because i'm not "100% queer", but there you have it, i am different. am i `them' or am i 'us'? what does that even mean? so this probably has personal applications to me, this question of difference and culture.

i am not "normal" but neither am i one of the "gays" if used to describe "that sort of person".
i am neither russian nor american: i am both.
i am neither gay nor straight: i am both.
i'm not even completely gender-defined, mentally, though i heavily lean towards female.

definiting yourself through group identity and sharing group identity is all natural and to be expected, but when others define that group, then it bothers me. "the gays" in most contexts isn't used by the gay population itself. whenever we call large groups of other people something, it's different than whatever self-identification those groups would use upon themselves.

i am not saying that being gay isn't a natural and healthy part of one's identity. i'm not even talking about identity, merely about linguistics.

if being gay is the -major- part of someone's identity, and moreover if someone -else- is decreeing that it is so, and even moreso, merely taken in a linguistic light, it bothers me for no particular one reason, as i said: it baffles me, there -is- no reason, i just -react-.

and, finally, `faggots' isn't offensive to me unless used offensively. i don't quite know how 'gays' is used as clearly as 'faggots', and it seems to be that -sometimes- 'gays' denotes something.... icky. but i'm not sure what.
clear as mud, i know :D

[chickenlittle83.livejournal.com]

Woman is a noun, so women is its plural form. black, asian, white, and gay are ADJECTIVES so to pluralize them by adding an S doesn't really make sense.

Whether the group they describe is offended by them is an entirely different thing. I just wanted to point out that silly gramatical bit.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

you know what's really weird?
it totally makes sense to me that the reason i have an issue is mostly a grammatically-based one :D :D

i just love that.
of all the possible explanations. it's just hilarious.
the subconscious repugnance of bad grammar use to my mind >:D

[chickenlittle83.livejournal.com]

The mind works in funny ways. :-)

Say, where do you go to school?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

yeah. *laughs*
oh, um. binghamton~:) er, suny that is.
meep. when i -get- to school instead of sleeping through it 'cause i stay up past 2am writing silly stories, anyway, heh.

[chickenlittle83.livejournal.com]

OKay, I go there too. I was just checking because more than a few people have Binghamton as where they live on their profile, but actually go to school somewhere else.

It's the whole home Vs school.... thing.

Yeah, mind if I add you?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee. um. i dunno, i uh... talk about harry potter slash here, mainly. *coughs*
i mean, if you don't -mind-, then. but i keep having non-fandom people crop up and then leave a few days later. heh. so like, i guess this is just me saying 'i told you so' pre-emptively :D

but yeah. aside from proclaiming my uninterestingness, hi~:)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I always associate the term "gays" with somebody who is kind of clueless and possibly slightly homophobic. Not necessarily somebody who was violently bigotted but it's just got the sense of repugnance to it. Don't know why that is, linguistically, it just makes me think of that kind of character/person.

Like a few weeks ago on Queen Eye Carson was joking about the wife of one of their subjects who was talking with her friends about his make-over and he joked, "Where can I get me one of those gays?" Maybe it's because it's slightly wrong. A person isn't "a gay" because gay is an adjective.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heheeheh :D :D
you rock. you make me feel like i'm right so much of the time it's probably bad for me, but :D :D

i like it!!! >:D
and yeah, definitely. "repugnant" is exactly how it seems to me, and "kind of clueless & possibly homophobic", yes!! and it does make one think of "well, a gay, 2 gay, 3 gay" a bit, hehehehe :D
*feels better, actually*

[darklites.livejournal.com]

Ick, yes, this bugs me. I even hear it on the news, and it makes me a little uncomfortable. I feel like it suggests that the "gay" part of someone who is gay is all that there is to them. As if it's the defining quality of one's personality, though it is really only one aspect. "Oh, he's a gay, that's all we really need to know, then." I know that it's assuming a lot to think this is what they mean (and most of the time it probably isn't), but it doesn't stop it from feeling a bit offensive.

So, yeah, I agree. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

erk. *meeps*
i'm becoming almost completely convinced that this is definitely significantly because of the grammar error. like, "a gay" just totally makes me flinch as well. like, because "a gay man" is totally fine, not that it's great or anything, but.

yeah. i don't even know where it comes from. it's not like people say "a white" or "a sad". it's just wrong, evil and wrong~:) plurarilizing adjectives: just say no >:D<

[yay4pikas.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. 'Gay people,' fine; 'queer people,' also fine, but only from other queer people. 'Gays' always, always bothers me, because, like mhari said, it makes 'gay' the emphasis rather than 'people.'

Probably one of the reasons I'm not terribly fond of 'lesbian' as a term, either.

'Homo-/bi-/heterosexual' don't bother me in an academic context, although I prefer them as adjectives rather than nouns, still.

(mhari linked me to you, as I was bitching about the subject myself.)