~~ voted most likely to never shut up. um. ootp, spoilers, blahblahblah

[reenka]

reading telanu's review of ootp left me with a weird feeling. in a way, i can see her points: an awful lot of the characters have either seriously changed (or rather, been outed as having been different all along), or not paid all that much attention to. there was no satisfying plot-related resolution, and everything kind of went downriver without a canoe in general. there's this feeling of -entropy- so many people seem to have felt as they read it, this disbelief-- paralleling harry's, even-- as so many accepted facts were stood on their heads all at once without being righted.

while -i- read it... i was spellbound. completely enthralled. because the book was basically -all harry, all the time-, and because i adore harry (before now, and now, and during), i couldn't tear myself away. it didn't even remotely occur to me to -judge- harry, to think badly of him, to wish him to be more like he had been. i was basically feeling everything right along with him, and there was just no -room- to wish for anything else-- more exposition on other characters, more attention to this or that plot point. all in all, i think i have to re-read the book in order to say anything more coherent than what i've already said, especially now that i've got everyone's opinions in mind.

mostly, it makes me wonder if i -can- have a fully objective reaction when i have such an intense bond with a character, and it's a character-driven story. i would agree that ron & hermione & sirius & dumbledore were acting differently in this book, were shown in different lights, or rather, perceived differently by harry. but that's the thing, isn't it, now more than before-- by harry. he was feeling distanced from everyone. he was confused and paranoid and even less prone to being sensitive to other's emotions than usual (not just cho, but everyone, really). he didn't -care- about what -they- felt if they didn't seem to understand what -he- felt, which is perfectly understandable.

i think there's a split in the reception of ootp between the people who instinctively feel drawn and bonded to harry and the people who'd -liked- harry before and aren't so sure now. this isn't a book for people who've -liked- certain characters-- harry or ron or even dumbledore, necessarily. i think it could only have fed one's -love- for them, because they're -hurting-, but harry had been slowly falling behind a sort of veil this whole book, and everyone just kept receding more and more, until nothing really even -existed- besides harry and his pain, alone together.

more than ever, i couldn't really tell you -why- most of the people around harry had acted the way they did (it took a lot out of me to extrapolate about draco, and i could only even do that because i love him, i think). i don't know why hermione has become dear abby, why ron seemed completely obsessed with quidditch and never noticed harry's hopeless descent or at least couldn't do anything about it, why hagrid was so completely impotent, why sirius became such a child. but i think one way to look at it is that they were all responding to harry's needs-- positively or negatively. hermione was saying exactly the wrong thing, even though she was only telling him what seemed most sensible. ron's happiness at being prefect and keeper came at exactly the wrong time, at a time when harry was feeling -needy- and he craved ron's attention to -him-, needed someone's world to revolve around -him-. malfoy's same old antics hadn't changed, and they were never anything he needed, so harry simply felt contemptuous towards them. and snape-- snape, who -should've- helped him, whom he tried to think wouldn't, but still was hoping-- didn't, and harry couldn't forgive that no matter -what- he now knew, because the most important thing was that snape didn't help when he could've.

i think asking "where is everybody" is being on the right track without seeing the train. because harry was asking that too, wasn't he. everyone let him down-- everyone except sirius, because as much as sirius was regressing, he needed harry, and harry knew that. no one else needed harry, needed to include harry, needed to ask harry for help which he needed to give in order to feel like life was even worth living. anyone who loves harry would see the truth of it, i think. because just because you love him, it doesn't mean you have to -trust- him, although more than anything, i would want him to trust -himself-.

if i thought about it in this vein, i would say pairing harry with sirius or harry with snape at this point, with ootp as canon basis, is actually cruelty to the character. pairing him with anyone is rather insensitive (and unrealistic at this point), i think, and malfoy remains problematic, but for the same reasons as usual. malfoy remains a constant, unwilling or unable to shift gears (or grow up) until the very end. snape refuses to change, too-- refuses to see harry for himself, as a human being who has nothing to do with other people's perceptions of him or with his parentage. malfoy didn't let him down, because i don't think he -can- no matter what he does (i guess there's something to say for "nowhere to go but up"), but everyone else has-- hagrid, dumbledore, cho, lupin, snape, sirius, hermione, seamus, percy, even ron, i think. the people who want to support him-- ginny and neville and luna-- don't -mean- anything to him, so it's kind of fruitless.

i think people have been wondering why harry didn't complain about umbridge. and i think he didn't complain because umbridge is an adult. she doesn't understand, she's cruel and petty and she takes everything that matters away from him-- but she's not that much worse than the rest of the ministry, than all the people who also think harry is a liar, who send harry hatemail about that article of his in `the quibbler'. harry doesn't trust dumbledore completely with a frightening ease, as soon as dumbledore doesn't meet his eyes, really-- but this is actually realistic for harry, because he'd never -had- reason to trust anyone fully, growing up the way he did. i mean, sure, that scene with james was rather embarrassing and discouraging-- but harry immediately jumped to the conclusion that james must've -forced- lily to marry him, that he wasn't -anything- like the brilliant father he'd imagined-- from that one incident! and how much do -we- forgive the ones we truly love, and how easily, and how scarred would we have to be to give that up with as little fight as harry?

i would say that harry's a -much- more unreliable point of view in this book than in the others, and any inconsistencies of characterization could easily be attributed to either his own sudden shift of perspective or his sudden apathy and insensitivity to the others.

but again, maybe i just don't have the analytical faculties to appreciate the holes in the narrative while i'm so completely emotionally wound up, on the edge of my seat in mingled excitement and fear and love. so i guess i'll stop talking about ootp, as i approach the risk of sounding repetitive. le sigh.
~~


okay fine, it's not all about harry. but i feel less certain when talking about ron & hermione. mostly, what i noticed is that ron seems to pick his battles, these days. he must've learned a certain amount of strategy living with all those rambunctious, demanding siblings (and parents!)

i've seen people say that he defers to hermione too easily, that it's horrible that harry thinks of her as mrs weasley-- who bosses arthur around all the time-- a fate worth than death, apparently, especially with its distinct lack of sex-appeal. i think that seeing ron as dominated by hermione would be a mistake, much in the vein of thinking that remus was being dominated by sirius and james by staying out of their way when they were tormenting snape. hermione or james wouldn't be easily swayed, but neither would ron or remus. i think they're all rather set in their ways and stubborn (arthur weasley included), it's just they have different ways of showing it.

ron cares about quidditch and chess and harry and hermione and not getting on his brothers' bad side, but all those things kind of work together, and sometimes, when they contradict each other, ron makes certain shrewdly strategic choices, i think. he knows not to go on the offensive at times, because that would be just wildly ineffective. he knows not to get in harry's way-- of course, i think not giving harry advice at all isn't necessarily the best choice, but basically we see that ron isn't going to make a stand unless he thinks it's important, and other people's insanities burn themselves out often enough, anyway. this really holds true with everyone except malfoy, who has his own especially-hated place in ron's heart, and to whom the usual rules of behavior apply if only in reverse.

all in all, i think we see ron -learning-, in ootp. he learns there are some things he can't deal with, and he learns that sometimes, he can actually do things he didn't predict simply by not imagining his own failure. he may not understand what's up with harry, but he does what he can-- he sticks around, and he doesn't change how he acts around him, for better or for worse. a part of ron must realize that hermione is expecting -something- from him, and he -tries-, i think, but he's rather crap at guessing what it is hermione wants even now. everyone who expected ron/hermione in book five seemed to have rather a high opinion of ron's ability to figure out what to do, exactly. i do think he tried valiantly (the perfume), but no one has yet explained girls to ron in terms he could understand (though he seems to wish they would), and i think it's just that he needs more time, which hermione is perfectly willing to give him because she doesn't want to compromise, does she-- she wants it her way, right away.
    EDIT - wah. i sound so... not as fangirly as i am. truly, i believe in ron & hermione's great and t00by (canon!) lurve. as seen in this timely illustration, hee. <3333
    EDIT #2 - not to -mention- seviet's ron & hermione, which just -completely- melted me. waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh >:0

they're all clueless, really-- ron, hermione, and harry of course. people seem to think that hermione's more perfect than ever in ootp, but i don't think that's necessarily true, because she's just as ineffectual as everyone else, isn't she, and that can't be entirely everyone else's fault, can it? she thinks she can help by spouting psycho-babble at harry until it flows right back out of his ears, and correct or not, what hermione can't seem to realize is that this isn't the way to help harry at all, no more than giving hermione "really unusual" perfume was likely to show her that he rather fancies her. they're all playing their own lonely fiddle, conversing in startlingly different languages. hermione seems mature, but if she really was, she'd know what her friends actually -needed-, rather than what she thought they did. just like dumbledore, she thinks she knows better and that is her main mistake.

people jump to resenting characters so easily-- understandable, of course, and even inevitable, but in the end, it just takes a little bit of effort and you can see their point of view instead of your own, which is what -they- should really try doing too, of course, and are failing at so spectacularly. not that i think any amount of empathizing will endear umbridge to anybody, but then, she is like the manifestation of everything that's wrong with the whole situation. tom riddle (and voldemort-- and dumbledore, too, sadly) seem almost products of a different time, somehow-- a simpler time, almost, though of course deceptively so.

i do think dumbledore, for all his wisdom, hadn't quite admitted to himself that evil can be done in the name of good and that no matter how much he thinks he understands, he never does understand -everything-, or even -enough-. because really, in the end, he doesn't quite understand -harry-, does he. even though he blames that on age, i think that dumbledore telling harry "everything" (which turned out not to matter to harry all that much), had a very particular point-- this transfers quite a bit of dumbledore's narrative power and general power over harry -onto- harry. we no longer have an omniscient backdrop, someone reliable to ask what's -really- going on, if we assume that harry now knows what dumbledore knows. in this way they are now equals, and harry is much more alone-- it is up to him, now, to figure out what to do with this "knowledge" he possesses. i also think it's equally prevalent in all the other age groups too. because it's -easier- that way. and umbridge's loyalties aren't so easily discerned, her side not so easily labeled-- doing evil for the sake of... what, exactly? order? pleasure? her own ego? all of the above?

they are all evil to each other, and the unwillingness to understand runs rampant throughout the book-- not just the ministry denying the return of voldemort-- but everyone denying the uncomfortable, hard-to-fit bits of each other's humanity, snape and dumbledore and hermione and harry, oh most especially harry, which comes back to haunt him more than anyone else, i think. because now, he sees more than he'd ever bargained on, more than he was ever prepared for, and he's alone in that. entirely, completely alone, even more so because some others understand bits and pieces of what he does. but it's not the same, and it's not enough-- it -can't- be enough, because they're not him, and they don't share his burden, and they aren't the ones who'll have to end up doing what harry will-- facing the darkness inside him straight on, without flinching, facing his own mortality and capacity for great evil.

and it's not their fault, and they brought it all upon themselves at the same time. ahh, the paradoxes of human nature.

.....aaaaand, i'm rather sure that's (finally!) all i have to say about ootp. at last, i know.
~~

for a pick-me up, i recommend aja's completely brilliant h/d songvid to maurice sendak's `pierre', followed by miss breed's equally brilliant fic for it. siiiiiigh.

Comments

[wankersore.livejournal.com]

brilliant post, as confirmed by the little green livejournal thumbs up.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

eeeeeeeee >:D

am shyly pleased, as confirmed by my rosy cheeks:
hee >:D

[ixchelmala.livejournal.com]

Don't ever shut up dear... as much as you write, I tend to talk and you hit many of my own feelings about this book.

This is all about Harry, and many of us don't remember what 15 was like, but much of it came suging out of me as I cried and went along on this emotional rollercoaster with Harry.

There were parts where I wanted to scream at people and others where I wanted to cry in misery with Harry (yes, I know he didn't cry, but it felt like he was just on the verge of ding so, then of course he'd do something else.)

Anywho, as for pairing and your comment on Harry trusting himself, I agree on the latter and on the former, I think the best pairing for Harry now, is Harry/Harry. I know that sounds silly, but he is alone and he does need to be able to rely on himself, and it's lonely now with out Sirius, but damn, everyone else was just not communicating they way that would have benifitted Harry in the least.

Come to think of it, that's one of Harry's major deals. His lack of being able to comunicate well. And given his history, it's no surprise.

Anywho, I liked reading your thoughts dear. Keep em coming!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

thanks! ~:)
mostly i was just thinking that it's lame to go on and on about ootp-- i mean, people have all made their reviewish posts by now (and so have i), and after a certain point it gets repetitive, i guess. but i keep having new things to say because something or other provokes me (usually people dissing harry, heh).

maybe i'll write a fic where he cries, finally...
hmmm. meep. *ponders*

<3!

[kitsune13.livejournal.com]

Brilliant. Especially the bit about Ron and Hermione -- terrific analyses, there.

<33! hee

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

thanks! i was rather unsure of my grasp on ron especially (and with hermione, there wasn't really that much -to- grasp, at first glance, in ootp), so am rather pleased i managed to make sense >:D and ron... any weasley... doesn't come very easily to my understanding at all, but when someone said he was being pushed around by hermione, i had to rush to defend his honour >:D

[(Anonymous)]

You are my hero.I felt exactly the same about the book,was unable to blame Harry among other things.Please don't ever shut up, your analyses are incredibly brilliant. ^-^

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

thanks ~:)
though i think being unable to blame harry isn't an analytical and more of an emotional response sort of thing. seeing as the people who -do- blame harry seem suspiciously biased towards sirius or snape -.-

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

On the contrary, what struck me so much about reading the book was that everyone was the same as they'd always been - just more intense, more obvious. I don't think anyone necessarily grew in this book, I think they just became more set in their ways. Sirius is more DID-like, Hermione is more controlling and obsessive, Ron's more centered on his quest for normality outside of what his brothers carved out, Harry is more angry and bitter. If anything, it struck me how much the characters stagnated in this book, despite the growth (Ron and Hermione especially) of earlier books.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hmmm, i can totally see that point of view. you should realize that this was responding to a post (telanu's) where she just went on about how everyone was unrecognizable, and how upset it made her, and so on. and i was actually trying to say, well no, they're not unrecognizable, or rather if they are it's because harry's in a state, so to speak, and so they'd appear a bit skewed, theoretically.

but actually, personally i didn't notice any huge difference, and yes, i did notice a certain sense of higher concentration of old characteristics-- except... i dunno, except not in all cases, you know? it's like, in some ways the characters stagnated, and then there were the other characters who attained new characteristics-- like ginny, neville and arguably sirius. i dunno about sirius, actually-- i don't feel he's made any great change except he's gotten deeper into a funk and regressed somewhat-- but i can still see how people would think he's not the same, you know?

and yes, i didn't mean to say harry, hermione or ron had changed-- did i say that? other people have said that (well, telanu, whom i was responding to), so maybe i wasn't clear enough in my disagreement because i was trying to incorporate her points into my own. i didn't quite completely disagree, and yet what she said made me uncomfortable, and i was just trying to work it out. i myself would never have decided to say, "well, these characters have greatly changed", because that's totally counterintuitive to me-- especially with ron and hermione, and harry too, really. i mean-- a lot of people think he -has- changed, you know that, right? i was kind of arguing against that while trying to retain some connection to the other point of view, so as not to completely go off on my own tangent, you know?

but yes, i definitely think the trio are pretty much the same, though harry's much the worse for wear and is very on edge and more distrustful, regressing or maybe just getting fed up with it all. i was -trying- to look for signs of progress in ron & hermione on -purpose- because the more obvious thing is that they're just more set in their ways.

i wanted to see -some- sort of progress, was trying to find it, and maybe i stretched too far, i don't know. like i said, i'm uncertain in my grasp on ron & hermione & draco (and with harry all i have is my intuitive rapport, really). so i could've easily mishandled them. i think i was being perhaps overly positive, trying to spin things so that -something- happened for ron & hermione's development because i was trying to argue that maybe-- infinitismally slowly-- their relationship -is- still possibly discernable. somehow. everyone was saying how r/hr is dead in the water, and i just wanted to argue against it -somehow-, even if i didn't do a very good job~:)

but yah, i can definitely see how you could easily say there was mostly a lack of movement or even entropy and a sense of them being shadows of their former, vibrantly growing selves. *grins* i knew it was a lost cause, trying to argue from a shippy point of view to start with (r/hr), but i guess i couldn't resist~:)

[thessamunga.livejournal.com]

HI REENA, I SEE YOU COMMENTING THEREFORE YOU ARE ONLINE BUT CASSIE'S OFFLINE READING SOME OOTP AND SO I CAN'T WAIT FOR HER TO COME BACK TO FIND OUT WHAT YOUR ANSWER WAS TO HER EMAIL *ANXIOUS*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*giggles* should i still write her back, or just... say it here too...? 'cause i was getting to it but my 'puter is slow 'cause of all the pointless downloading of j-pop. *laughs*
but yah, i'll just reply to her and cc it to you, then, okay? *soothes*

[thessamunga.livejournal.com]

AM WAY UNDERSLEPT, PLZ FORGIVE.