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djinanna says some interesting things in her post on the general direction buffy's taken this season. mostly, i take issue with her issues with unhappy endings and sort of the uselessness of dystopian visions, even though i've ranted against those things myself. i don't know. it seems to be that as long as you tell a good story, the things you do to the characters can be excused, because you're not being placated here, or made to feel better-- you're being made to feel.especially taking issue with this quote:
Because Joss Whedon thinks he knows what we need, rather than what we want. And what we *need*, according to Joss, seems to be (if I understood the interviews and quotes I've read correctly) to have our hearts ripped out and stomped on, and our guts tied into knots and set on fire.
Because he's a Tolstoy guy. Yeah, Joss, blah blah Tolstoy cakes. I'm more of an Edmund Kean creator myself (he, or maybe Sir Donald Wolfit or Edmund Kean or Edmund Gwenn or David Garrick or Groucho Marx or Marcel Marceau or Oscar Wilde, my sources vary, is attributed with the death bed words: "Dying is easy. Comedy is hard."
it does make me feel better, thinking that people write about pointless emotional pain and physical suffering because they think it's High Art, because you could -argue- then, and say, but that's ridiculous, and talk about how High Art is all about the redemption and edification of the spirit, and so on. and this isn't about the amount of angst, so much as the transfiguration of said angst at some point, the use of that angst to eventually make the characters better people. i mean, if you -don't- do that, you're torturing your characters (and readers) needlessly, and beating them over the head with the moral of "everything is dross and filth. suck it up."
but anyway, much as it would amuse me to imagine that all those people writing about excessive death and bitchiness are in pursuit of Le High Art, i'm pretty sure most of them aren't. most of them are probably just expressing either their own depressive take on the universe ("i'm depressed, you're depressed, we're all depressed-- and then we die"), or their need to take out their aggression on their helpless characters ("die, die, die, my pretties, ahahahaha, the POWER!!")
i dunno if i'm saying joss is depressed and with anger management issues or anything (that would be a bit of a jump)... but i guess i feel that High Art is all about teaching us something, getting us to realize something about ourselves and the universe. sometimes those things are dark, sometimes they're not-- as long as it inspires you to some sort of release, a catharsis-- then you can't really say the story's failed. i would -rather- stories had some sort of uplifting element in them, certainly-- i'd rather life had an uplifting element to it (and it always does). i think reassuring and eventually inspiring you isn't what stories are there for, necessarily. they could also be greatly useful in frightening you, disturbing you, making you think, making you question.
i do think that one-note fiction isn't very often -good- fiction. hopefully it's funny -and- sad -and- hopeful -and- disturbing in parts. certainly buffy has been funny as well as sad, hopeful and hopeless both at once. i agree that truly uplifting, beautifully poignant things that show one hope in one's humanity are probably the highest one can aspire to as an artist. and i think that indeed, it's easy to pointlessly kill people and separate lovers just because, meaning for cheap effects and crocodile tears. there's plenty of failed comedy as well, of course-- plenty of flat jokes, stupid set-ups, idiotic fluff that doesn't even make me smile because it's so transparent. lack of subtlety and cliche aren't good no matter what your emotional valence is.
personally, i always try to find a solution for whatever angst that surfaces in my own writing. i try hard for my characters, attempting to do anything i can think of to help them find what i think they're looking for, just because i want to believe it's possible, and i myself want to see how it could happen, the possibility fascinates me. what if we -could- find what we're looking for? that's one of the big questions in life, i think. and if i didn't attempt to answer it, i would be the poorer for it. i can't always do it. sometimes i'm at a loss, and all i can do is bow out gracefully, leaving an open ending behind me. i have never -doomed- a character for kicks, simply because i don't believe in doom. i only killed characters in fics that were exercises, plot-bunnies that wouldn't leave me alone. sometimes in order to tell a story, something has to go horribly wrong, and there's nothing i can do about that.
hopefully, whether the story is light or dark, it still has something important to tell one, as the reader -or- the writer. there are many possibilities for events to occur, and it's fun to explore them all, and nothing is any less or more deserving of the telling, really, i think, as long as you listen to the characters, and to yourself, when you write it.
~~
and
fick_l_rene agrees with me about the insanity of ice-queen!draco. i feel good. have i ranted on this before? i must have. i can't even remember what i've ranted about yet or not. weird. anyway, it's nice to know you're a disciple without even knowing it :D or something.this has bugged me for a long, long, long, LONG time. i see it a lot, and i don't like it a lot. i've probably ranted on it once or twice (so many rants, so little time). but. even though maybe you can say, "but he'd learn to be more controlled in time", i don't see why it's so bloody common, for one thing, and why we get this characterization in 5th year fics. you know what i think the truth is? people don't LIKE canon!draco. they can't imagine him well enough, they can't empathize with him well enough, and they can't figure out how to make him likeable. so they take an already cardboard character and make him easier fodder for romance. they're writing cookie-cutter romance, and they want something they can use, and something they can like.
it's very easy to write romances about what are already romanticized characters. it's rather harder to take un-retouched versions and try to bake pie, so to speak.
plenty of people see draco as a whiny, extraverted, emotionally incontinent, dramaqueen bitch. sure. but most of them don't write harry/draco, or if they do, they don't write chaptered wip sort of harry/draco. *looks pointedly at
weatherby and scowls*the big wip people (who don't suck eggs in every which way) tend to be romantics who have their own idea of draco they're pushing, and who're in love with draco, usually. they want to make him pretty. harry has to love him-- or harry has to reject him and give him pain, depending on emotional preference. maybe both.
i've actually seen a lot more in-character harrys than dracos. it's a toss-up, whether the harry will be in denial and aloof after gof (see, he's depressed, so he's bitchier and meaner and more "dark"-- this happens a lot, too, not just happy!harry)-- or he's all open and heroic. actually, he's not all that balanced most of the time, in fic. though often he's desperate and willing to let draco use him and abuse him, and so on. which of course pisses me off.
but yes, yes, yes, so many plebes think ice-queen when they think draco. beautiful pale misunderstood boy, with horrible, abusive, eeeevil father. my my, what a sad boy he is. what a sad boy harry is. they will make beautiful loff together, as soon as they realize they both have Issues. my, my yes. and also, they will go together charmingly-- whitish hair and blackish hair. it was Meant to Be, obviously. yes.
~~
wah. read `dancing queen', and am in my happy place. apparently, my happy place includes maya writing about dudley in leather. who knew??! love. love. have i mentioned i LOVE maya's dudley? and her harry? and her draco? because, yes. she could make me love ice-queen!draco and like it. yah baby yah. *sends even -more- loff to maya*
antenora wrote more harry/draco. much squeeing commenced.do an interpretative dance celebrating the wonders of the noble zucchini
... i can't emphasize just how much i adore the creative use of fruit and vegetable in fic. heh. seriously. the inclusion of lettuce, zucchini, cucumbers, tomatoes, pineapples, cherries, etc, are sure to win my vote of extremely pleased confidence. just so you know.
and.
ztrin wrote `playground love', which is a harry/cho/draco triangular-type-thing from cho's pov (eeee, yet another loffly, loffly pitch-perfect cho), which, if it doesn't earn -quite- as much loff (i mean... what could beat drugged-out!draco?)... still. eeeeeeeeeeee~:D me and addictedkitten might be the only insane people who sort of kind of ship this... (shutupshutupshutUP! yes, i mean, i know i fight it, but it's the only way, really, that i can excuse my shameful liking of both draco/cho and harry/cho) but yah. i mean, yah. it's trin. so. i mean. you kind of -have- to like it, you know :D~~
completely unrelatedly to anything. since lasair has been reccing killa for highlander fic, i thought i'd see what else she'd written. and. i just have to say. kirk/spock smut makes baby reena cry. i know, i know. such a wuss. but. but. but! take pity on me.
i am an open-minded, nice sort of slasher addict (*snorts*), but they are my childhood loves. i cannot. physically -cannot- tolerate spock checking out jim's sexy bod. no fucking -way- jose. gar. gar. gar at you star-trek-slasher pervs. GAR!!
these are the Deep Questions, my friends. try writing in character spock wanting jim. ahh, but there is a challenge much more difficult than in-character harry wanting draco. oh yes. you think this is difficult, this puny pairing? ahahahah. i can't even -imagine- in my wildest dreams, how spock will be "unable to control his erection", unless it was pon-farr. i bet he doesn't even GET erections, unless it's the mating season. gah. if you love spock, how can you do this to him? he DOES have control. that's why i -love- him. if you change the thing you love about a character just for the pairing, how can you justify yourself? how can it be good? i mean, if you love spock, you love a spock whose mind and body are tightly under his control. he barely calls kirk jim, unless they're both in peril. my -gahd-. *frowns* this is seriously bothering me. in hp fic, i just get annoyed by ooc characterization. but here. it is so -clear- how spock would and wouldn't act. it is an act of violence to his character to do this to him. how anyone bear to torture characters this way for the sake of empty pleasure? meep.
EDIT - it occurs to me that it's merely the slasher mindset at work here, just like everywhere else. but like...
lasultrix asked how does one make canonically straight adults fall head-over-heels in homosexual love. especially in a short story. without the excuse of either immortality or youth. and well-- i don't know if you can, believably. and especially if you've got an investment or some sort of personal belief system about said characters already, then it becomes doubly strange and painful to see it all dismantled for the sake of smut. i admit i was overly harsh in calling it badfic. killa's writing is smooth and i would probably grin and enjoy it muchly, were it another pairing. but i simply can't bear to slash some characters, unless it's got a damn good reason-- better than some assumption about "chemistry" and "obvious attraction". if the characters are real and alive in your own head, you need a deeply resonant story, a detailed story, that can incorporate this new aspect of them and weave it into the fabric of their past and future. somehow make it gently inevitable, and yet it has to remain somewhat submerged, especially if canon stretches over the course of their lives, and you're not writing a fic beyond the last time and place canon had reached. i don't know. i am so easy with some pairings, so i feel bad, because if i apply this standard to one of them, shouldn't i apply it to all of them? don't all characters deserve some sort of background before a radical shift in their emotions and perceptions takes place? i suppose, yes. i mean, mostly fanfic doesn't shoot very high (especially smut), but. the more i care about a character, the more i insist on a certain characterization. if you write about mulder with anyone but scully, include his deep feelings for her, include his need for her. if you write about spike, include his obsession with and need for buffy, sexual and emotional. if you write about spock, include his stoicism and emotional distance and lack of overt sexuality-- his asexuality, in canon. his asexuality is, to me, as important as mulder's heterosexuality, as vital to his character. but again, this is just me, and my extreme bias and connection to a particular character making more much more fussy than i am at other times, so it's sort of hypocritical. but oh well ><
~~
and, recently have been considering the many different types and possible definitions you could play with, in terms of love, romantic love, even. it's so fun to define it and then spin stories from that particular definition, and see what happens, isn't it? seems like a fun sort of thing, as far as a writing exercise. pick a couple, and try to write ficlets around like, 5 or 10 different sorts of love for them. different ways to think of love, different outcomes, different worldviews resulting from it, all the ways one could act while still under the influence. it just makes me giddy :D
~~
plaidder reminds me of the importance of saying no sometimes when it counts, and sometimes when it doesn't, not to anyone but yourself. so no. no, no, no, no, no, no, no i won't shut up about it.
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Re: spock checking out jim's sexy bod
Date: 2003-03-19 08:16 pm (UTC)i tried to set this in the admission that obviously, very obviously, i have...er...mental blocks at play here.
most of the reason i called it badfic is because i couldn't believe the idea of it without wanting to sort of... spontaneously combust.
i don't mean the writing itself is bad. you know? just, to drop me into that fic as the first fic of the pairing i'd ever read was probably a bad idea, and it's no one's fault. but er. not saying she's a bad writer. meep?
just saying that...er...
yes. i'm the last person who thinks perfect love has to be platonic... in fact, i've ranted about this very subject lengthily... well... when it comes to harry & draco in the `draco trilogy' and in general...
i sort of knew i was abandoning my own principles, saying that, but... i couldn't help it. my eyes were burning ><
like i sort of said... you know. take pity. i have issues ><
as far as chemistry... yes, i do think they have chemistry. in a way, i ship kirk/spock more mightily than anything else, ever. i was in love with them for -years-. my formative years, too (13-18). it was a long time to be obsessed over characters, so naturally i overreact when something er.... different comes along to shake at the foundations of how i see them.
sigh. i didn't mean to insult killa's writing at all.
i was just wibbling. a lot.
er. well. eep.
yes, i was just... saying... that i think spock... is very... very... controlled. in all the episodes i remember. also, perhaps more importantly, in my head.
i mean, he's half human, yes, but he very rarely acts it. he barely calls him -jim-, as i said. also, they can't really have an established relationship and remain non-AU, as far as i know canon. and it's the canon i know best, out of all possible fandoms. because i've read all the episodes, read countless novels, and seen a lot of them, too.
you'd have to -convince- me a lot more than with harry & draco, that they can just have a happy, open, lover sort of relationship, because they have a -very- steady professional relationship, and a telepathic bond as well... and it's just... you'd really have to build up to it and make it sublte. i mean... yes, they have chemistry, and yes jim flirts with lots of girls, but this is SPOCK. this is different. this is serious. their relationship is pretty serious.
i dunno. i'm unreasonable on the subject, as i kept saying.
i'm v. sorry if i offended you ><;;
meep! i just... i'm very attached to spock, and protective. too protective. i realize it's unreasonable, but i can't help it and i -tried- to read it anyway and it sort of was... traumatic. if someone would rec a ... serious, mostly-gen, kirk/spock fic that is... carefully set-up and so on... i would love to read it and change my mind~:)
Re: spock checking out jim's sexy bod
Date: 2003-03-20 02:40 am (UTC)Besides, apart from perceiving that you insulted Killa's writing, the other thing that bothered me was the way you'd set up your issues (but I only realised that the moment I turned off the computer and went to bed and I was too tired to turn it back on. I replaced a few words in your original post:
i am an open-minded, nice sort of slasher addict (*snorts*), but they are my childhood loves. i cannot. physically -cannot- tolerate harry checking out draco's sexy bod. *snip* i mean. how can you DO THAT to them? how can you? how can you write badfic about woobie characters? have you no heart? no soul? how can anyone publish badfic about...
And, frankly, I have heard that argument before about all kinds of pairings, not just H and D, and I still feel that whatever floats your boat, man. I mean, if I write H/D or Clex, does that mean I have no heart because I'm distorting some other fan's perceptions of them?
In the end, if you don't like it, you always have the choice of not reading it. You can't slander anyone's fic as badfic just because you don't agree with the pairing. You can do it for different reasons, but not on reasons of personal taste.
And just because you didn't like one story, you can't trash all the rest. There are many wonderful stories out there. Some might portray the relationship as you see it. Some won't. But to discard and accuse writers of being heartless on the basis of one story? A story that dealt with a moment in the life of an established couple, something that you obviously don't like. And if you still can't find what you want, should you decide that you want to venture where many slashers have gone before, you could always write your own story.
Anyway, I really do respect your issues. After all, I have issues with the Harry/Snape pairing, so i do understand how traumatic is to suddenly find something with which you don't agree. But don't take it on the writers.
Re: spock checking out jim's sexy bod
Date: 2003-03-20 09:26 am (UTC)you're entirely correct. you can take my head now, because i was really stupid ><
or rather, 100% emotional, and i wasn't really trying to take it out on the writer at all, but just ranting and raving like a lunatic. *laughs*
er.
but yes. kirk/spock was slash to me before i knew slash -existed-.
i am uber-sensitive to their... well... thing, and... i think it's just... a sort of childhood pre-sexual thing (even though i wasn't quite a child at the time, my reaction is the helpless gibbering one might feel when one sees... i dunno... tinman/lion slash). even though i -knew- k/s existed and was okay with it, my brains flew out the window and i well... lost it ><
yes. er.
we all...... well... some of us delete those posts as soon as we make them, but i live in this happy little bubble where i still pretend i'm writing this for myself and just to express myself, where i don't have to apologize and i know i didn't mean it in the morning. you know?
yah ><;
Re: spock checking out jim's sexy bod
Date: 2003-03-20 09:38 am (UTC)But...
I don't know; maybe if you hadn't spoken against one of my friends I wouldn't have minded so much.I'm very sensitive when it comes to my friends.
I'm sorry.
Re: spock checking out jim's sexy bod
Date: 2003-03-20 10:00 am (UTC)i wasn't attacking any -person-. though. um. what with the "how could you" comments, yah. i was being melodramatic, though, not seriously accusing or anything. but yah. thankfully, this didn't turn into anything... too bad ><
will be more careful, in an honest sort of way, in the future. or, try, anyway :D
Re: spock checking out jim's sexy bod
Date: 2003-03-20 10:24 am (UTC)i wasn't attacking any -person-. though. um. what with the "how could you" comments, yah. i was being melodramatic, though, not seriously accusing or anything. but yah. thankfully, this didn't turn into anything... too bad ><
will be more careful, in an honest sort of way, in the future. or, try, anyway :D
Re: spock checking out jim's sexy bod
Date: 2003-03-20 03:31 am (UTC)Everything I've heard about Cybele, and all the snippets I've seen of her writing, tell me that she's a fantastic writer and that IYAP is a fantastic fic, probably superior in quality to many of the H/D fics I read. I can't bear to read it. Because in my head, Harry would never do that. I certainly don't call it badfic, though.
I never watched TOS. But I'd be squicked by Voyager slash. Partly because I just don't want to hear about Tuvok naked. Partly because Tom/B'Elanna is true. (I'm also squicked by Janeway/Chakotay, which is as close to canon as you get, so it's not the slash issue. It's that I don't want them doing those things.)
But I'm aware that this isn't me objectively deciding certain things are OOC. It's that in fandoms we like, we stretch the canon very far (it's still IC, but it's stretched) whereas when we don't want the canon to change much, the idea of extrapolating so far as to slash strikes us as OOC and wrong. But that's just our personal wishes and tastes.
Kirk/Spock actually seems plausible-ish to me, because Spock's half-human and that comes out sometimes in canon, and because Kirk means so much to him, and because of the general Star Trek ethos of let's improve the Vulcans by spreading some of our wonderful illogical human warmth to them.
That's not really the point, though. The point is that you can't call Killa's writing badfic because you don't want the canon to go in that direction.
Continuing...
Date: 2003-03-20 04:21 am (UTC)My eyes would still burn if I read it, though.
and yeah, I'm probably flogging a dead horse by now.
Re: Continuing...
Date: 2003-03-20 09:43 am (UTC)well. i dunno why, but yes. the only star trek slash pairing i like, though i suppose i'm partial to unrequited q/picard, because that's just woobie.
and that's funny, because i've seen plenty of voyager slash that pairs paris with people other than kim. is that really the dominant pairing? i mean, they like pairing paris with chakotay, which is like, huh? but they do it a lot.
and anyway. er.
yah, i know i said undefensible things, but i figure i'm allowed to, right?
do i always have to be fair and on the up-and-up, considering i didn't think (okay, i just plain didn't -think-), but i didn't intend for this to get back to the author. otherwise i'd have waited until i was coherent.
and the funny part is, i -do- slash kirk/spock. sort of.
you know? their love means a LOT to me. i do think they love each other. that's obvious. whether they have sex (especially often) is another story entirely. if slash is merely saying that you think those characters are each other's imzadi, then yes, i slash them to high heaven. i can't bear to see them with anyone else. i -adore- them together. they're my all-time otp, you know?
it's just. slash extrapolates and changes canon, to some extent. with them, i have -such- a strong canon reality in my head, the slash would have to rigidly adhere to it. i dunno. i just care too much and have too many preconceived notions and the idea of spock naked does do weird things to my brain.
but not just naked, with an ERECTION??!!??! aaaaaaargh. so yah.
obviously, like i said, issues.
did delete the badfic thing. i mean, the reason i said it was that... it was so.... over-the-top. i mean, the characterization of him as...well... randy... just -killed- me. it's like a fic where draco is nice. i'd call -that- badfic, no matter how good the writing was. although i can see how it's wrong and offensive to do that, i simply wasn't really directing it at anyone but myself.
but yes, we all know i'm not always reasonable, to say the least.
hopefully, no one hates me now ><;;