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mamadeb's essay on how `queer as folk' isn't slashy because it isn't transgressive rung pretty true to me, at least in terms (at least a good part of) -my- attraction to slash and particular pairings within and outside it, even. although the question of the identity shift that occurs when you realize you have these feelings that don't fit into the mold of who you always thought you were (and who society says you need to be) isn't very often actually -handled- in stories so much as explained away.
sigh. i've written a whole big post on this, but then lj ate it, so i suppose i'll try to reconstruct some of the main bits of it.
i like the idea of transformation, of a sudden discontinuity, whether by choice or not, and the effects that would have on one's conception of self. it's more interesting when it's a choice, i think. my favorite fairy tales have this theme pretty widespread-- man to swan, beast to beauty, human to changeling, prince to pauper. sometimes it's a choice-- as in, you go on a quest, and you leave your old self behind, and go in search of your True Destiny and what have you. what you are in the end is sort of still yourself, but changed, revealed to be Other in some significant way.
and i'm fascinated by this idea-- where it's not just that you fall in love with the Other, but that you discover that you -are- the Other. it's your typical hero's quest, really, isn't it? you start out being kind of wet clay-- you think you're just a peasant, living in an ordinary village, with a mum and a pop and 6 lazy brothers and 10 loud chickens. and then you hear The Call, and you make the choice, and you set out to realize that with every turn you make, you're leaving who you were further behind.
the question is, perhaps, whether you ever really -were- that person. to me, it's much more interesting if you were. there are several possibilities here-- especially if we're talking slash, and you discover this transgressive attraction to someone of the "wrong" sex. firstly, you can suppose continuity and say you were always bisexual. secondly, you can suppose a rift, and say you used to be straight, and aren't anymore (i didn't think this was really something that happened that much-- or at least i was put off by all the people who used the present to invalidate the past-- but ivy's post kind of changed my mind in that area). thirdly, you can say you were always in denial, and the continuity is there no matter what you clearly thought or felt before (which -could- happen, but is mostly offensive in light of an honest reading of most source material).
i love the existential issues that would arise if the past -was- real and then things change. like with spike, or angel-- you were what you were, until you decide to change that-- and, naturally, you can't really change everything-- or even the most important things. but that choice to follow a new path does have unique consequences. there's definitely an interesting interaction between who you are and what you merely act like. a spike with a soul has a different set of options, and acts different in some ways but the same in most ways, to when he had the chip, anyway. the question of whether he -is- the same, or is in fact "different", is a more difficult one than it at first appears, i think.
there's a similar dynamic i can see happening with draco, which is a big reason why i like him so much as a character (especially tied in with -slashing- him-- especially with harry, which piles on yet more transgressions and impossibilities and boundaries neither was meant to cross). a lot of writers just say he was never as he appeared (either straight -or- a complete useless sort of bastard). so really, him being with harry is then not really a discontinuity, not so much a transgression as a "righting" of something that's wrong-- ie, their conflict in the first place.
maybe this is natural, because it's got to be hard to write about people changing on any sort of basic level. i don't even know myself if people -can- change. but, i think, in a way, slash is all about that. taking something "unnatural" and fusing it with the natural-- walking the razor's edge where desire and need can dictate reality. this is a big reason why magic in general attracts me so much. there is definitely a magic in the idea of love as an act of will, and consequently a sort of semi-conscious creation of self.
i say semi-conscious because i don't mean to imply that anyone is likely to wake up one day and decide that falling in love/lust with the wrongest person ever is a patently Great Idea. but maybe it doesn't matter why you do it-- just that you do it. maybe you just can't help yourself, but you -want- to. i don't know. in a way, that's why slash stories that end with the characters falling back into old patterns, going back to being who they were, feel so deeply wrong to me. because this choice,this change, is so irrevocable and profound-- and i'm talking about an attraction, a love between these two characters, because if you take it outside of two particular characters, you just have a "realization" of some sort of generality like, "i like boys", which has never meant all that much all by itself.
this sort of makes me think of my little fantasy world, where draco doesn't have to have been "good" or always pretending, or always infatuated with harry, in order to become something outside the boundaries of his former self. i think my ideal fanfic would be an in-depth look into this ultimate transgression & transformation of draco malfoy. i don't know if i'm saying i want him to be "redeemed"-- i just want to see a character realistically in conflict with himself, and see him grow from within that conflict.
like,what really happens when nothing works the way it's supposed to anymore? what happens when the rules don't apply? what happens when the map runs out and you just see, "here be dragons"? i suppose that is what i hope fantasy could be, and also what i hope love could be, too.
~~
and yah, because i can never seem to stop while i'm ahead:
disclaimer: not mine.
~~~Synthesis~~~~
Draco was the antithesis of what Harry should have wanted, but that hadn't stopped them, until it did.
When he'd said, "So are you staying or going?" Harry just stared.
It wasn't like he had a choice. It wasn’t like he wanted one.
"Which do you want me to be?"
It was an either or question, but Harry realized he wanted choice number three.
The theory was, he was leaving.
Draco had come without asking. Harry should leave the same way.
Standing there, Harry realized he was waiting for an answer.
“The one who’s going to stay.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mamadeb's essay on how `queer as folk' isn't slashy because it isn't transgressive rung pretty true to me, at least in terms (at least a good part of) -my- attraction to slash and particular pairings within and outside it, even. although the question of the identity shift that occurs when you realize you have these feelings that don't fit into the mold of who you always thought you were (and who society says you need to be) isn't very often actually -handled- in stories so much as explained away.sigh. i've written a whole big post on this, but then lj ate it, so i suppose i'll try to reconstruct some of the main bits of it.
i like the idea of transformation, of a sudden discontinuity, whether by choice or not, and the effects that would have on one's conception of self. it's more interesting when it's a choice, i think. my favorite fairy tales have this theme pretty widespread-- man to swan, beast to beauty, human to changeling, prince to pauper. sometimes it's a choice-- as in, you go on a quest, and you leave your old self behind, and go in search of your True Destiny and what have you. what you are in the end is sort of still yourself, but changed, revealed to be Other in some significant way.
and i'm fascinated by this idea-- where it's not just that you fall in love with the Other, but that you discover that you -are- the Other. it's your typical hero's quest, really, isn't it? you start out being kind of wet clay-- you think you're just a peasant, living in an ordinary village, with a mum and a pop and 6 lazy brothers and 10 loud chickens. and then you hear The Call, and you make the choice, and you set out to realize that with every turn you make, you're leaving who you were further behind.
the question is, perhaps, whether you ever really -were- that person. to me, it's much more interesting if you were. there are several possibilities here-- especially if we're talking slash, and you discover this transgressive attraction to someone of the "wrong" sex. firstly, you can suppose continuity and say you were always bisexual. secondly, you can suppose a rift, and say you used to be straight, and aren't anymore (i didn't think this was really something that happened that much-- or at least i was put off by all the people who used the present to invalidate the past-- but ivy's post kind of changed my mind in that area). thirdly, you can say you were always in denial, and the continuity is there no matter what you clearly thought or felt before (which -could- happen, but is mostly offensive in light of an honest reading of most source material).
i love the existential issues that would arise if the past -was- real and then things change. like with spike, or angel-- you were what you were, until you decide to change that-- and, naturally, you can't really change everything-- or even the most important things. but that choice to follow a new path does have unique consequences. there's definitely an interesting interaction between who you are and what you merely act like. a spike with a soul has a different set of options, and acts different in some ways but the same in most ways, to when he had the chip, anyway. the question of whether he -is- the same, or is in fact "different", is a more difficult one than it at first appears, i think.
there's a similar dynamic i can see happening with draco, which is a big reason why i like him so much as a character (especially tied in with -slashing- him-- especially with harry, which piles on yet more transgressions and impossibilities and boundaries neither was meant to cross). a lot of writers just say he was never as he appeared (either straight -or- a complete useless sort of bastard). so really, him being with harry is then not really a discontinuity, not so much a transgression as a "righting" of something that's wrong-- ie, their conflict in the first place.
maybe this is natural, because it's got to be hard to write about people changing on any sort of basic level. i don't even know myself if people -can- change. but, i think, in a way, slash is all about that. taking something "unnatural" and fusing it with the natural-- walking the razor's edge where desire and need can dictate reality. this is a big reason why magic in general attracts me so much. there is definitely a magic in the idea of love as an act of will, and consequently a sort of semi-conscious creation of self.
i say semi-conscious because i don't mean to imply that anyone is likely to wake up one day and decide that falling in love/lust with the wrongest person ever is a patently Great Idea. but maybe it doesn't matter why you do it-- just that you do it. maybe you just can't help yourself, but you -want- to. i don't know. in a way, that's why slash stories that end with the characters falling back into old patterns, going back to being who they were, feel so deeply wrong to me. because this choice,this change, is so irrevocable and profound-- and i'm talking about an attraction, a love between these two characters, because if you take it outside of two particular characters, you just have a "realization" of some sort of generality like, "i like boys", which has never meant all that much all by itself.
this sort of makes me think of my little fantasy world, where draco doesn't have to have been "good" or always pretending, or always infatuated with harry, in order to become something outside the boundaries of his former self. i think my ideal fanfic would be an in-depth look into this ultimate transgression & transformation of draco malfoy. i don't know if i'm saying i want him to be "redeemed"-- i just want to see a character realistically in conflict with himself, and see him grow from within that conflict.
like,what really happens when nothing works the way it's supposed to anymore? what happens when the rules don't apply? what happens when the map runs out and you just see, "here be dragons"? i suppose that is what i hope fantasy could be, and also what i hope love could be, too.
~~
and yah, because i can never seem to stop while i'm ahead:
disclaimer: not mine.
~~~Synthesis~~~~
Draco was the antithesis of what Harry should have wanted, but that hadn't stopped them, until it did.
When he'd said, "So are you staying or going?" Harry just stared.
It wasn't like he had a choice. It wasn’t like he wanted one.
"Which do you want me to be?"
It was an either or question, but Harry realized he wanted choice number three.
The theory was, he was leaving.
Draco had come without asking. Harry should leave the same way.
Standing there, Harry realized he was waiting for an answer.
“The one who’s going to stay.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 01:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 01:40 pm (UTC)i mean, i don't care about canon so much myself, since 9 times out of 10, i don't -read- canon. i think she was equating the transgression in slash to the transgression in a story about a human who willingly becomes a vampire, or i guess (that's the reason i brought up spike), a vampire who willingly becomes a human. this is all referring to personal shifts. it's not so much about the hotness or the overall character traits of these people, so much as about the -act- of revolutionizing one's concept of self, of realizing you want what you shouldn't and you are what you shouldn't be.
i mean, i'm all about the hotness (well...er...), but outside of the slash aspect, even, i love stories about transgression. this is why i was bringing up spike and fairy tales (like tamlin, beauty and the beast, the seven swans, bearskin, and so on).
i like the idea-- the possibility-- of transcending the limitations of identity. like, there you were, perfectly happy as a stupid slytherin brat who liked girls and HATED harry potter-- and then, boom!
you -want- him.
that changes -everything- draco thought he knew about himself, probably. he'd have to realize all sorts of things just to deal with it. it's such a discontinuity, such a -shift-. he's not just subverting -canon-, he's subverting basic ideas about what it means to be slytherin and male and hetero by default. therein's the uncharted territory.
so yah, it requires perversion of a number of concepts. and yah, this goes beyond slash and into something larger, even-- a fascination with transgression and transformation of self in general.
and i don't know. i'm not sure that a "normal" gay couple taken within an insulated gay community is all that original in the dynamic. i mean, people by nature aren't all -that- different, just because they're with members of the same sex. it takes more to make the interaction ...revolutionary... than just being stripped of one set of gender politics only to be replaced by another. i dunno. there's been a lot more history of men together (not as much as men and women together, but probably as much, just in different ways)-- and not so much history of this crossing of boundaries where no community is set and everything is up in the air.
but now i'm just babbling ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 01:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 02:08 pm (UTC)Yes, the individual dynamic of the gay couple within the gay community won't be particularly original, but it won't be the same hetero dynamic we've been reading in centuries of literature. Not that there aren't gay clichés - God, there's tons. But it's still more different, if you get me?
Sorry, this is the opinion of three shots of vodka and some HL smut that has turned me into wibbling mush.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 02:17 pm (UTC)for some reason when you said that i just tried to imagine you saying all that in an intoxicated irish drawl and that made me giggle a lot :D
but er. i'm happy to have anyone's opinion, wibbling mush or straight-up oatmeal consistency. *coughs* man, the things i say ><;;
it just makes me feel less like i'm talking to myself. which, you know. would be true, even if people read it, if they didn't have -any- reaction, y'know~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 02:21 pm (UTC)Drunken Irish drawl, eh? Ah sure ye know what us Oirish are like, show us a Scot with muscles gettin' his mickey sucked by a fella who's bin around the block for five thousand years, it's gonna be some fucken good sex, yeknowwharrImean yeknowwharrImean?
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 02:47 pm (UTC)you know, that is almost tempting me away from the Goodness and Purity that is hp slash ;) maybe it's the idea of ragged-haired dirty men snogging in dim, dingy sort of pub, except, you know, gorgeous and immortal. *ponders*
there's something to that, definitely ^^
and, wah! you commented on my drabble!!
eeek! *bounces*
and um. yah, with the sweet. but. i was supposed to get them to get back together in 100 words. just how angsty could i -get-? ehehehe
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 02:48 pm (UTC)eeee. happy you liked >:D
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 02:55 pm (UTC)This (http://hos.slashcity.com/sog.htm) is one of the best fics I have ever read in my life. I'm not sure whether it's the hottest - O's Like Gods might beat it to it, but I don't know, cause right now I am absolutely weak from the sex of it all. Oh.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 02:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 03:02 pm (UTC)i know. but, i can't help it, nothing beats connor's eyes to me. just. gah.
duncan was always... er. but i did watch some of the series... i don't know how much... probably like... 10-15 episodes total, maybe?
i haven't seen many with methos-- mostly i saw the ones where he was with richie and the girl. two girls, i think there were. i remember natalie(??), the blond human one, and then he was with that brunette immortal thief-chick, whom i didn't like.... but yah.
will read :D
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 03:14 pm (UTC)A few thousand years ago, Methos was part of a band of savage killers who roamed all over the land killing and raping as they went. He took a slave, an Immortal woman called Cassandra. Kronos was the leader of the Four Horsemen, as they were known, but Methos was the strategist. Kronos returns in Comes a Horseman for two episodes before Duncan kills him and ye GODS are he and Methos ever the ultimate dom/sub.
The fic I led you to is Duncan/Methos, Kronos/Methos/Cassandra in flashback. *quivers in lust*
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 06:02 pm (UTC)*sweet smile*
Love the style, hate the pairing. As always. ^ ~
I love how the first line sets up the whole structure and style and then the second line just plays off the first in flow and rhythm.
/dork
no subject
Date: 2003-03-07 07:15 pm (UTC)*hides*
and, er. i'm glad it worked. felt intimidated by my own last drabble, heh. since, if i can please once, i certainly can't twice, you know how it is >:D<
also, this was er... fluffier ^^;
it occurs to me that i mostly write h/d by default. i mean... there's nothing all that harry & draco-like about it. i mean, you know. there's nothing even all that fanficcy about it.
though, honestly, it would take a -real- leap of imagination to have it be... i dunno... ron/hermione or draco/pansy or seamus/ginny or what have you. but maybe that's just... er. the "antithesis" thing :D
no subject
Date: 2003-03-08 09:12 am (UTC)Try a weird pairing. They can get HOT. Er... right. I'm off to take my medication, really I am.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-08 01:25 pm (UTC)see, it's not about the fanficcing, it's about wallowing in my little fantasy world :D
and of course, i -have- written bits of draco/ginny & draco/hermione and that's plenty "weird" for me. i dunno -why- but i can force myself to write draco/other het but not slash. that's just too evil. and if it doesn't have draco in it, what good is it?
hee. and honestly, i think i mostly use harry because he's a great vanilla sort of character. you have him react to draco... like a white strip reacting to colorant. hee.
other people have too many quirks, i think. they're all weird and i'd have to calculate and ponder how they'd be together. i mean, alicia/pansy. what the hell? you know.
so yah, it's a failure of imagination, unless it's just -really obvious-, like harry/ginny or draco/pansy or even draco/ginny (that's pretty obvious, really). ron/hermione is already too complex for me, ehehehe.
i guess i can do harry/ron, but i'm really bad at ron, which rules out draco/ron (even if i could get over my horror at that pairing). see, i write h/d because i -read- h/d. i've only tried writing snape once, in a comedic type setting, which wasn't too bad, but if i tried pairing him i'd be a complete bloody disaster.
i can barely even -imagine- how bad i'd be at lucius. snape, at least i can imagine (no pairings, though!). lucius.........gah.
everyone else is bloody boring. ginny is ok. hermione-- eh, you know. too ...practical.
ron is too...normal (i mean, i can see how harry is normal, but he's at least got angst and a Grand Destiny). snape is too bitter. percy isn't my thing (like hermione). percy/hermione? i'd suck eggs.
although it has merit.
tom/hagrid, i want to write, but i don't think i could.
really, fanfic is not natural for me ><;;
gah ^^