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lasultrix's post on why she doesn't ship clark/lex, i was nodding throughout. i completely see the validity, and in fact find myself in agreement. if you take them as real-life people, they don't work. enough people could make the claim that if you take harry & draco as real-life people, they wouldn't work-- because they're not very realistic characters to start with, and also because if they -were- real, they'd repel as much as (and probably more) than they attracted, and that's never a good thing in the long-term.
yes, i ship harry/draco because they work so great together in my head (and indeed how -can- i ship them canon since i had only read like, 5 pages 2-3 years before my first fanfic, and seen the first movie by then). the reason i liked clex is because i -did- see the Looks they gave each other (or at least, that lex gives clark... oh, he SO SO DOES)... i don't like clark. because he's just... well. he is what he's supposed to be. he's proto!superman and i don't -like- superman, because he's the most boring and cardboard and unrealistic of all the superheroes. i never liked superman, really. i liked lois & clark, but clark in that show was kind of mischievous and cute and not very "canon", really. plus lois was a good match for him. personally, i was always a lois/clark shipper, because i think a tough, gritty, somewhat-unavailable-and-snarky woman is perfect for him. i'd love him with chloe, who is a lois prototype.
and lasair articulated issues that were always in the back of my mind as to why i don't -read- any smallville unless i know it's by a good writer. i don't -like- superman or the "small american town" mentality or the stupid over-the-top soap-opera cheese of the show. i -do- love lex, and i do love the huge symbology of the Dark mating with the Light, and that is -part- of what i adore about harry & draco. i love the way they fit, in terms of ideas and metaphors, not so much people even.
yes, as people, lex & clark don't work.
but as ideal, as -pieces- of a greater being-- as aspects of the archetypal Hero-- lex is -great- as everything clark isn't. they may not be suited-- but it's the same reason people say harry & draco aren't suited. they reflect each other and they are the flip-sides of each other, but that never made anyone good with another person, in reality.
i can definitely see that if i bothered to analyze my kind of automatic attraction to the pairing (sort of the way i eased into ron/hermione without ever having actually thought about it or why i think it's a "good idea")-- i'd see how there are all these loose ends. like the fact that lex values clark's innocence without understanding him, yes, and how clark is just being charmed(?) while understanding even less, and that's bound to have consequences. in my other OTPs, i would contend that against all odds, these two people can understand each other better than anyone. i too, would doubt it with clark & lex. i mean, it's just-- basically-- that clark isn't all that bright, or rather, is too blinded, really.
in fact, i still think lois (as she is in `lois & clark: the adventures of superman' and also movie!lois) is the best match for clark - tough, no-nonsense, an aggressive, intelligent, yet basically simple woman who doesn't take his shit and is mildly unavailable, making him have to pursue her eventually. whoah. like his mother ^^; or... er... chloe. heh. but chloe is too... piney and too available and aggressive in slightly the wrong way. i dunno.
but yes. i just love the pairing from a lexian perspective. i think lex needs clark, whether or not clark understands him. i also think clark needs lex, precisely because lex is so far beyond him. in a romantic/sexual way? i guess not. and the question of why do we pair people-- ie, why do we slash, is an old and thorny one, and it applies here, i think, even with all the eye-fucking. it's not always because it would "work out", that's for sure. for me it is, but then, i'm not necessarily the most forward-thinking person, so i don't obsess over the future and in fact don't much like futurefic unless it's in the `gundam wing' universe, where "in the future" they're still like, 18 or whatever.
i'm saying, to me it "works" even in that instant, that spark of magic where they come together. to me a story can exist, right there in that moment, suspended in time. i became a huge buffy/spike shipper purely on the merit of their first kiss (technically it was season 4 or 5 or whatever, with the misfired spell, but i mean the first one that -counted-, in the musical). and then with the sex, i was sold. they're bloody hot together, goddammit. as far as clex, um.... well. i just like the clash of the titans aspect of it. and the grand, ares/hercules, good/evil thing, sort of what the cave paintings are all about.
does good & evil and heaven & earth colliding produce good, healthy relationships? i would think not. i care more about harry/draco and would thus defend their future potential for... well... not -harmony-... growth, maybe?
but with clex.... whether or not they "work", they are equals. that's what draws one. they are both powerful, beautiful, with strong egos and grand destinies. they like each other, all the better. they have sparks and "accidental" touching and anger and pain and forgiveness and redemption all themes in their friendship. better still. they aren't quite... regular guys to me. even less so than harry & draco, who, while strongly symbolic/archetypal in my mind, aren't quite as mythical as superman is. superman IS a god. face it. he's a demigod, at the very least. he was conceived as such-- just as hercules-- a god in human form, a god who's on earth, to help and protect and defend.
lex is the other face of this god. the dark face.
on a grand, eternal level, this goes beyond whether they understand each other or whether it's realistic for them to fuck, and when. this is about people-- forces-- that can never be free of each other. that will always mirror each other. they -can't- understand each other by their very natures, just because they're so different. but that is also why they mate, why they're so bound. admittedly, i'm borrowing a lot of ideology fromthamiris, here, and her great entry on the parallels of clark/lex and hercules/ares, which has really influenced my thinking on this. but i do see it, and the cave plotline in the show just confirms it for me.
as a person, i actively dislike clark. he's an immature, not-so-bright, over-muscled farmboy, for gahd's sakes. lex is a power-hungry, amoral, machiavellian-in-training incarnation of all that's wrong with capitalism, with serious father issues. but if i saw clark as something else-- as the vision he was initially created as-- as superman-- it all makes more sense. he is not clark, you see. clark is a mask, a mirror, a well-wrought illusion of sorts. clark is his superego. he is kal-el. he isn't even human. who -knows- what he's capable of understanding and being. he has endless possibility and a huge amount of power, differently but equally to lex.
but still. i'm not that into it, anyway, and it's mostly for lasair's reasons. i just can't see clark as being as interesting as lex, on the show, so basically my shippiness is stifled. i see buffy as equally interesting to spike, on the show, so i'm ok. smallville, on the other hand, while -having- these themes, totally wastes them 99% of the time, so. i was just explaining why i instinctively like the ideas behind the pairing, that's all.
~~
and. just when i think i've seen everything. or at least close.
*laughs and laughs*
i was not-so-priviledged to find a fic where... yes. voldemort repents and cries (and becomes tom again), and of course draco becomes a gryffindor. now... ok. draco crying and being a wuss is one thing. but voldemort??!! oh, that's just too good. i can't handle it. the hilarity. it's too much. poor tom. he just needed someone to show him the error of his ways. awwwww. and, lucius repented too, of course. all the death-eaters repented. i expected the angels to start singing and the hand of god to start swathing everything in golden light any minute. maybe they just all really needed a hug.
mmmm. fanart for sara's `the one with horns'. gahd, i love that fic. and this picture. they are so. adorable. i am so dead with adoration. dead, i tell you. dead. and wah! she draws realistic, pretty-pretty jareth/sarah, too~! mmmm, labyrinth.... jareth.... rawr.
lasultrix's post on why she doesn't ship clark/lex, i was nodding throughout. i completely see the validity, and in fact find myself in agreement. if you take them as real-life people, they don't work. enough people could make the claim that if you take harry & draco as real-life people, they wouldn't work-- because they're not very realistic characters to start with, and also because if they -were- real, they'd repel as much as (and probably more) than they attracted, and that's never a good thing in the long-term.yes, i ship harry/draco because they work so great together in my head (and indeed how -can- i ship them canon since i had only read like, 5 pages 2-3 years before my first fanfic, and seen the first movie by then). the reason i liked clex is because i -did- see the Looks they gave each other (or at least, that lex gives clark... oh, he SO SO DOES)... i don't like clark. because he's just... well. he is what he's supposed to be. he's proto!superman and i don't -like- superman, because he's the most boring and cardboard and unrealistic of all the superheroes. i never liked superman, really. i liked lois & clark, but clark in that show was kind of mischievous and cute and not very "canon", really. plus lois was a good match for him. personally, i was always a lois/clark shipper, because i think a tough, gritty, somewhat-unavailable-and-snarky woman is perfect for him. i'd love him with chloe, who is a lois prototype.
and lasair articulated issues that were always in the back of my mind as to why i don't -read- any smallville unless i know it's by a good writer. i don't -like- superman or the "small american town" mentality or the stupid over-the-top soap-opera cheese of the show. i -do- love lex, and i do love the huge symbology of the Dark mating with the Light, and that is -part- of what i adore about harry & draco. i love the way they fit, in terms of ideas and metaphors, not so much people even.
yes, as people, lex & clark don't work.
but as ideal, as -pieces- of a greater being-- as aspects of the archetypal Hero-- lex is -great- as everything clark isn't. they may not be suited-- but it's the same reason people say harry & draco aren't suited. they reflect each other and they are the flip-sides of each other, but that never made anyone good with another person, in reality.
i can definitely see that if i bothered to analyze my kind of automatic attraction to the pairing (sort of the way i eased into ron/hermione without ever having actually thought about it or why i think it's a "good idea")-- i'd see how there are all these loose ends. like the fact that lex values clark's innocence without understanding him, yes, and how clark is just being charmed(?) while understanding even less, and that's bound to have consequences. in my other OTPs, i would contend that against all odds, these two people can understand each other better than anyone. i too, would doubt it with clark & lex. i mean, it's just-- basically-- that clark isn't all that bright, or rather, is too blinded, really.
in fact, i still think lois (as she is in `lois & clark: the adventures of superman' and also movie!lois) is the best match for clark - tough, no-nonsense, an aggressive, intelligent, yet basically simple woman who doesn't take his shit and is mildly unavailable, making him have to pursue her eventually. whoah. like his mother ^^; or... er... chloe. heh. but chloe is too... piney and too available and aggressive in slightly the wrong way. i dunno.
but yes. i just love the pairing from a lexian perspective. i think lex needs clark, whether or not clark understands him. i also think clark needs lex, precisely because lex is so far beyond him. in a romantic/sexual way? i guess not. and the question of why do we pair people-- ie, why do we slash, is an old and thorny one, and it applies here, i think, even with all the eye-fucking. it's not always because it would "work out", that's for sure. for me it is, but then, i'm not necessarily the most forward-thinking person, so i don't obsess over the future and in fact don't much like futurefic unless it's in the `gundam wing' universe, where "in the future" they're still like, 18 or whatever.
i'm saying, to me it "works" even in that instant, that spark of magic where they come together. to me a story can exist, right there in that moment, suspended in time. i became a huge buffy/spike shipper purely on the merit of their first kiss (technically it was season 4 or 5 or whatever, with the misfired spell, but i mean the first one that -counted-, in the musical). and then with the sex, i was sold. they're bloody hot together, goddammit. as far as clex, um.... well. i just like the clash of the titans aspect of it. and the grand, ares/hercules, good/evil thing, sort of what the cave paintings are all about.
does good & evil and heaven & earth colliding produce good, healthy relationships? i would think not. i care more about harry/draco and would thus defend their future potential for... well... not -harmony-... growth, maybe?
but with clex.... whether or not they "work", they are equals. that's what draws one. they are both powerful, beautiful, with strong egos and grand destinies. they like each other, all the better. they have sparks and "accidental" touching and anger and pain and forgiveness and redemption all themes in their friendship. better still. they aren't quite... regular guys to me. even less so than harry & draco, who, while strongly symbolic/archetypal in my mind, aren't quite as mythical as superman is. superman IS a god. face it. he's a demigod, at the very least. he was conceived as such-- just as hercules-- a god in human form, a god who's on earth, to help and protect and defend.
lex is the other face of this god. the dark face.
on a grand, eternal level, this goes beyond whether they understand each other or whether it's realistic for them to fuck, and when. this is about people-- forces-- that can never be free of each other. that will always mirror each other. they -can't- understand each other by their very natures, just because they're so different. but that is also why they mate, why they're so bound. admittedly, i'm borrowing a lot of ideology from
thamiris, here, and her great entry on the parallels of clark/lex and hercules/ares, which has really influenced my thinking on this. but i do see it, and the cave plotline in the show just confirms it for me.as a person, i actively dislike clark. he's an immature, not-so-bright, over-muscled farmboy, for gahd's sakes. lex is a power-hungry, amoral, machiavellian-in-training incarnation of all that's wrong with capitalism, with serious father issues. but if i saw clark as something else-- as the vision he was initially created as-- as superman-- it all makes more sense. he is not clark, you see. clark is a mask, a mirror, a well-wrought illusion of sorts. clark is his superego. he is kal-el. he isn't even human. who -knows- what he's capable of understanding and being. he has endless possibility and a huge amount of power, differently but equally to lex.
but still. i'm not that into it, anyway, and it's mostly for lasair's reasons. i just can't see clark as being as interesting as lex, on the show, so basically my shippiness is stifled. i see buffy as equally interesting to spike, on the show, so i'm ok. smallville, on the other hand, while -having- these themes, totally wastes them 99% of the time, so. i was just explaining why i instinctively like the ideas behind the pairing, that's all.
~~
and. just when i think i've seen everything. or at least close.
*laughs and laughs*
i was not-so-priviledged to find a fic where... yes. voldemort repents and cries (and becomes tom again), and of course draco becomes a gryffindor. now... ok. draco crying and being a wuss is one thing. but voldemort??!! oh, that's just too good. i can't handle it. the hilarity. it's too much. poor tom. he just needed someone to show him the error of his ways. awwwww. and, lucius repented too, of course. all the death-eaters repented. i expected the angels to start singing and the hand of god to start swathing everything in golden light any minute. maybe they just all really needed a hug.
mmmm. fanart for sara's `the one with horns'. gahd, i love that fic. and this picture. they are so. adorable. i am so dead with adoration. dead, i tell you. dead. and wah! she draws realistic, pretty-pretty jareth/sarah, too~! mmmm, labyrinth.... jareth.... rawr.
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no subject
Date: 2003-02-05 10:51 pm (UTC)I really don't think this argument flies for either pairing actually. I agree that this is a powerful dynamic and one that shows up in fanon a lot, but I don't think it is a part of canon. Both pairs would look cool together and can be made conceptually interesting, but they are not flip sides of each other and they are not equal unless you make them so. I suppose the monetary and political power vs. alien powers thing might be an argument for Clark and Lex being balanced. However, I don't think they represent a light/dark dichotomy in the way you describe. Clark is the white half of a black and white view of the world. Lex is one murky gray in a sea of shadows. Their paradigms might be two sides of a single coin and destined to combat and suplement each other forever, but I'm not so interested in slashing those.
no subject
Date: 2003-02-05 11:14 pm (UTC)i've read fanfic, seen probably 3 eps from season 1 and 65% of this season, probably. my one defense is that the cave thing is my canon back-up, with clex. that was pretty obviously a duality thing, a -predicted- "pairing" ie shared destiny thing for lex & clark. with the twining snake and whatever. i mean, they were drawn together on old cave walls. that's sorta going into mythic territory. that was my main inspiration. that, and
but... yes, as "real, actual people" they're not "like that". i think i tried to say that.
as real, actual people, they are both more and less meaningful and/or complex.
lex is gray right now, but that's just like gandalf. he has a Destiny. he has to be black eventually, because he's bound to be a reflection of clark eventually, even if he isn't now. at least, that's how i interpret the whole cave prophecy thingie.
also, superman-canon!lex is pretty darn black.
as far as power...
again, the cave thing. also, um... my wishful thinking. also, i think that what clark has, lex doesn't, but it works vice versa (with the brains and the cunning and the money/power, which were even a match for -superman-. the reason i say they're equals is because lex luthor is superman's arch-enemy, which implies a sort of equality).
as far as slashing the concepts...
er. well, i'd slash earth and sky, river and ocean, pretty much anything i consider yin/yang. heck, i'd slash yin with yang~:)
i'm a symbolically obsessed fangirl, i guess.
also, i agree it's fanon, but in smallville as in 95% of all fandoms everywhere, i think canon sucks and i don't like it to start with ^^;
harsh but true. if i like canon, i don't like the fanfiction near as much, because it's not as good as canon. i seem to like one or the other, simply because most times, they're just so -different-.
but, my imagination was running away with me.
i like the demigods-on-earth concept, and i like the potential titan-like powers of clark and lex, in different ways. i like them as embodiments of meta-ideals, since as people-- well, clark, at least, lacks that certain something. that would make me like him. as in, at all ^^;
if i -do- like the character as a character, i tend to ease up on the symbology. ie, draco may be harry's "shadow" but he's not some Ice Prince of Chaos in my head or anything. heh~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-02-05 11:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-06 06:57 am (UTC)