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reenkaas far as everybody (it seems) getting bored with hp, the "little boys" fandom, and going for smallville and highlander and so on.... because they have "real men". with depth and character and muscles....
i wonder how many in the hp fandom are in it because they -want- the characters to be boys, to be inexperienced dorks, ciphers to make into what you wish, not so much people as ideas. i mean, i know -i- want that. i know -i- enjoy reading young adult fantasy more than serious adult drama, most of the time. something about that whole "real men" and "serious adult [sexual] drama" makes me think of actual -fiction-, actual stuff you're supposed to find in published books, when you expect quality and maturity and meditation on existence or something.
this is the weird thing with harry potter books, because -everyone- read them (well, except me, at the time anyway). people who don't read fantasy, people who don't read YA fantasy, people who actively -dislike- fics about wizards, people who dislike harry, whether in practice or archetype, etc etc. and then there's this question of why do people write fanfic at all. i think a large enough percentage of writers in any fandom find it easier to write fanfic than original fic. and i can see where they're coming from, though i never found that to be true for myself, because i rarely understand anyone's world as well as i do my own. of course, this is actually a good thing in a way, because i tend to make more effort to figure out the characters i'm writing about, and thus end up with more fleshed out characters. but i always go for the easy thing, usually, and fanfic ain't easy.
anyway, i imagine that the people for whom fanfic is a natural writerly response to a book/show/world they like would get bored with the potterverse soon enough. it does have its limitations, and the characters are only as fascinating as you make them with your blood and sweat, so to speak. personally, i -like- the limitations, the archetypal nature of the characters, because it makes it easier for me to write. i can't seem to write about deep, complex characters-- i can barely keep these ciphers in-character, forget characters with extensive histories and quirks and the body-language of the actors playing them, and the general feel of the series, their voices, their chemistry, everything. the challenge involved would be overwhelming, and i've never loved -any- show enough to bother trying. after all, the show is already -there-, why do -i- need to add to it?
while, since jkr's writing is so spare (not to say bad), there's an obvious need to add to it. since her characters are children, and strongly archetypal to boot, it's fun to mold them, have them grow up in ways you want them to. i find i can't really get excited over exploring a mature character that's already coming pre-made with a history, a long series of relationships, set habits and so on.
so basically, the truth is, if i'm not writing hp, i'm out. i'm out of all fandom. which might be a good thing, of course. but i can't see myself finding anything else after this, though i constantly get enamoured with new books and series and such. i just feel-- different. like, a different sort of fan, a different sort of fanfic writer. i've -tried- writing for other fandoms, a little. i suck really, really, really bad. so maybe there are different sort of fanfic writers. maybe there are some who find this one fandom that inspires them, and they've never written it before but they -have- to now. and then there are the majority, who seem to just get inspired by things, and find it easy and natural to play with other people's concepts until the inspiration runs dry and they turn to the next thing that drives them to create.
funny thing is, hp canon itself doesn't drive me to create at all. i'm basically writing fanfic because of other fanfic. somehow, i saw a thread binding all of them, and i fell in love with the fanon versions of the characters, and they began to live in my head. but it's not because they're -mature- or -male- or -hot-. it's just because they're like, a part of me, i can see myself in harry & draco & hermione, and that's basically why i can write them. i'm the furthest thing from a grown man. in fact, i'm not that much of a grown -woman-. i can't do realism all that well, so hogwarts suits me very well. i have no clue about how to write for action-based shows, or how to write about weathered warriors and lost chances and regret and harshness. i can write clueless!harry and angsty!draco and first love and dorky lust and boys being silly, because i can totally understand that.
i mean, i dunno, there must be different modes of writing. either that, or lots of people actually do understand methos and snape and lionel luthor and picard and spock for that matter. i know myself well enough to know that i don't. i may think they're -hot-, but they're mysteries to me. i can't just write them because they're hot and manly. i mean, it would just be horrid, horrid fiction. i can't even really understand -clark kent-, or maybe i don't want to. harry is squeaky-clean enough for me, thankyouverymuch. i'm nothing like clark kent. nothing. how can i write him?? and who the fuck CARES if he's hot? what kind of criteria is that for writing about characters??! ok, smut, maybe. but that's ridiculous, why call him clark kent, then?
i don't write about draco malfoy because he's a gorgeous stud-- in fact, i don't like blonds. and no, i don't even like his personality all that much, even though he's kinda cute and dorky and stupid and mean and that's sort of adorable. if silvia does it, anyway. and harry. i mean, he's got nothing on tim hunter, and he's not all -that- interesting, and even though dan radcliffe is hot (ahem), it doesn't really enter into why i want to write about him. they are archetypes, and i've always written about archetypes, always used fairy-tales and symbols and the Prince and the Anti-hero, in my head anyway. hot or not, it matters little. i mean, if i created character X, would i care if she/he was hot? no. why does it matter that the characters we write about are hot? i mean, i do have the draco luurve, but.... it's weird anyway. sigh.
maybe there's a difference here between what one wants to read and what one wants to -write-. naturally, it's more pleasant (in theory) to read about hot guys getting it on without all that stupid stubborn immaturity getting in the way. well... i -did- used to read obi-wan/qui-gon and kim/paris and almost anything that wasn't rps or cop-show drama or buffy (don't tread on my otp, heh) that seemed fun. personally, like i said, i read YA fantasy a lot, so that's what gives me the biggest happy. highlander is a show i enjoy, but i don't adore it, because it's mostly an action/adventure show without any particular character i either identify with or find impossibly fascinating. i love buffy, but i can't write spuffy, really, without watching a lot more of the old episodes, and i don't need to, because a) there's a lot of good fic out there if i went het; b) the show is good enough. plus the world (sunnydale) isn't really my oeuvre. i mean, suburban california? vampires? argh.
smallville... wah. i can't write in a world made of americana -and- melodrama -and- scifi -and- have the "normal" boy!alien doing it with a mostly-mature guy with all sorts of father issues. wah. a whole big foreign kettle of fish. and i don't deny it-- lex is hot. but i'd have to have something to -say-, something about smallville and clark that was a part of me, that spoke deeply to me, because that's where my fiction comes from, from my subconscious, most of the time. i can just craft a story, force it and do it because i -can-, but what's the point?
that's my thing with say, lotr rps, too. do i know these people? no. do i want to know these people? no. do they seem cute and slashy? yes. but so what? am i so bored i want to use any example of slashy guys cuddling to jump-start me on smut? i can do smut with my own characters, then. character A would have blondish hair and greenish eyes and character B would have soft brown hair and dimples. presto! instant boylove.
but that's not the point. it's easier to just read smut than write it anyway. it's easier to just not bother. something has to make me bother, in terms of writing. and it's great that for some people, the hotness and slashiness of some actor is reason enough to write-- i mean, any reason is a good reason. it's just not my reason, that's all.
EDIT - i have this sinking feeling that i just managed to sound even more incoherent and silly than usual. ah well. reena's brain is having a fizzy day today, methinks.
i wonder how many in the hp fandom are in it because they -want- the characters to be boys, to be inexperienced dorks, ciphers to make into what you wish, not so much people as ideas. i mean, i know -i- want that. i know -i- enjoy reading young adult fantasy more than serious adult drama, most of the time. something about that whole "real men" and "serious adult [sexual] drama" makes me think of actual -fiction-, actual stuff you're supposed to find in published books, when you expect quality and maturity and meditation on existence or something.
this is the weird thing with harry potter books, because -everyone- read them (well, except me, at the time anyway). people who don't read fantasy, people who don't read YA fantasy, people who actively -dislike- fics about wizards, people who dislike harry, whether in practice or archetype, etc etc. and then there's this question of why do people write fanfic at all. i think a large enough percentage of writers in any fandom find it easier to write fanfic than original fic. and i can see where they're coming from, though i never found that to be true for myself, because i rarely understand anyone's world as well as i do my own. of course, this is actually a good thing in a way, because i tend to make more effort to figure out the characters i'm writing about, and thus end up with more fleshed out characters. but i always go for the easy thing, usually, and fanfic ain't easy.
anyway, i imagine that the people for whom fanfic is a natural writerly response to a book/show/world they like would get bored with the potterverse soon enough. it does have its limitations, and the characters are only as fascinating as you make them with your blood and sweat, so to speak. personally, i -like- the limitations, the archetypal nature of the characters, because it makes it easier for me to write. i can't seem to write about deep, complex characters-- i can barely keep these ciphers in-character, forget characters with extensive histories and quirks and the body-language of the actors playing them, and the general feel of the series, their voices, their chemistry, everything. the challenge involved would be overwhelming, and i've never loved -any- show enough to bother trying. after all, the show is already -there-, why do -i- need to add to it?
while, since jkr's writing is so spare (not to say bad), there's an obvious need to add to it. since her characters are children, and strongly archetypal to boot, it's fun to mold them, have them grow up in ways you want them to. i find i can't really get excited over exploring a mature character that's already coming pre-made with a history, a long series of relationships, set habits and so on.
so basically, the truth is, if i'm not writing hp, i'm out. i'm out of all fandom. which might be a good thing, of course. but i can't see myself finding anything else after this, though i constantly get enamoured with new books and series and such. i just feel-- different. like, a different sort of fan, a different sort of fanfic writer. i've -tried- writing for other fandoms, a little. i suck really, really, really bad. so maybe there are different sort of fanfic writers. maybe there are some who find this one fandom that inspires them, and they've never written it before but they -have- to now. and then there are the majority, who seem to just get inspired by things, and find it easy and natural to play with other people's concepts until the inspiration runs dry and they turn to the next thing that drives them to create.
funny thing is, hp canon itself doesn't drive me to create at all. i'm basically writing fanfic because of other fanfic. somehow, i saw a thread binding all of them, and i fell in love with the fanon versions of the characters, and they began to live in my head. but it's not because they're -mature- or -male- or -hot-. it's just because they're like, a part of me, i can see myself in harry & draco & hermione, and that's basically why i can write them. i'm the furthest thing from a grown man. in fact, i'm not that much of a grown -woman-. i can't do realism all that well, so hogwarts suits me very well. i have no clue about how to write for action-based shows, or how to write about weathered warriors and lost chances and regret and harshness. i can write clueless!harry and angsty!draco and first love and dorky lust and boys being silly, because i can totally understand that.
i mean, i dunno, there must be different modes of writing. either that, or lots of people actually do understand methos and snape and lionel luthor and picard and spock for that matter. i know myself well enough to know that i don't. i may think they're -hot-, but they're mysteries to me. i can't just write them because they're hot and manly. i mean, it would just be horrid, horrid fiction. i can't even really understand -clark kent-, or maybe i don't want to. harry is squeaky-clean enough for me, thankyouverymuch. i'm nothing like clark kent. nothing. how can i write him?? and who the fuck CARES if he's hot? what kind of criteria is that for writing about characters??! ok, smut, maybe. but that's ridiculous, why call him clark kent, then?
i don't write about draco malfoy because he's a gorgeous stud-- in fact, i don't like blonds. and no, i don't even like his personality all that much, even though he's kinda cute and dorky and stupid and mean and that's sort of adorable. if silvia does it, anyway. and harry. i mean, he's got nothing on tim hunter, and he's not all -that- interesting, and even though dan radcliffe is hot (ahem), it doesn't really enter into why i want to write about him. they are archetypes, and i've always written about archetypes, always used fairy-tales and symbols and the Prince and the Anti-hero, in my head anyway. hot or not, it matters little. i mean, if i created character X, would i care if she/he was hot? no. why does it matter that the characters we write about are hot? i mean, i do have the draco luurve, but.... it's weird anyway. sigh.
maybe there's a difference here between what one wants to read and what one wants to -write-. naturally, it's more pleasant (in theory) to read about hot guys getting it on without all that stupid stubborn immaturity getting in the way. well... i -did- used to read obi-wan/qui-gon and kim/paris and almost anything that wasn't rps or cop-show drama or buffy (don't tread on my otp, heh) that seemed fun. personally, like i said, i read YA fantasy a lot, so that's what gives me the biggest happy. highlander is a show i enjoy, but i don't adore it, because it's mostly an action/adventure show without any particular character i either identify with or find impossibly fascinating. i love buffy, but i can't write spuffy, really, without watching a lot more of the old episodes, and i don't need to, because a) there's a lot of good fic out there if i went het; b) the show is good enough. plus the world (sunnydale) isn't really my oeuvre. i mean, suburban california? vampires? argh.
smallville... wah. i can't write in a world made of americana -and- melodrama -and- scifi -and- have the "normal" boy!alien doing it with a mostly-mature guy with all sorts of father issues. wah. a whole big foreign kettle of fish. and i don't deny it-- lex is hot. but i'd have to have something to -say-, something about smallville and clark that was a part of me, that spoke deeply to me, because that's where my fiction comes from, from my subconscious, most of the time. i can just craft a story, force it and do it because i -can-, but what's the point?
that's my thing with say, lotr rps, too. do i know these people? no. do i want to know these people? no. do they seem cute and slashy? yes. but so what? am i so bored i want to use any example of slashy guys cuddling to jump-start me on smut? i can do smut with my own characters, then. character A would have blondish hair and greenish eyes and character B would have soft brown hair and dimples. presto! instant boylove.
but that's not the point. it's easier to just read smut than write it anyway. it's easier to just not bother. something has to make me bother, in terms of writing. and it's great that for some people, the hotness and slashiness of some actor is reason enough to write-- i mean, any reason is a good reason. it's just not my reason, that's all.
EDIT - i have this sinking feeling that i just managed to sound even more incoherent and silly than usual. ah well. reena's brain is having a fizzy day today, methinks.
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just two very short points
Date: 2003-01-23 01:01 pm (UTC)a) I've never thought of JKR's characters as being particularly archetypal. I mean, with the exception of a few characters the rest are very sketchy. You mention Draco: in my opinion, the only archetype Draco stands for is that of the snotty, spoiled brat. The rest is fanon. Snape and the adults have more depth, but for them to be elevated to archetype status? I'm not really sure. I do find them to be particularly fleshed-out characters, with quirks and tendencies particular to them, but not archetypes.
(unlike Methos and Duncan - said the Methosmuse)
b) writing characters who have histories and fully developped character is, sometimes, easier and at the same time more difficult than dealing with JKR's sketchy ones. I mean that if you have someone whose history is already known to you, you have the safety net of canon (and that is why I find the idea of IC in HP very amusing, since the characters are so incomplete that one can play with them a lot :)), and at the same time the added danger of falling into cliches and not being able to develop them further. It's a different type of writerly challenge, IMO.
And, finally, I don't really understand the idea of identifying or putting yourself into a character when you write him/her. Certainly some parts of a writer's personality slip into the fictional characters (why do you think all of my characters are obsessed with art? *grin*), but, in my opinion, a writer's job is to bring out the character, not use the character as a vehicle for whatever baggage she/he may have.
But, I really do understand what you are saying. In the end, we all have our own, personal experiences to shape our conceptions - and preconceptions of writing and fandom. One doesn't make the other less valid.
Re: just two very short points
Date: 2003-01-23 02:18 pm (UTC)but, will attempt to redeem self presently. but will not succeed.
1) hmm. the archetypal thing... ahahaha. for all i know, you could be right. i haven't read canon before fanon, and i can never fix that. my formative hp experience was fanon, and any canon i read after that was always bound to be fanon support and fodder for fic. i don't -like- jkr's writing, and i just... i don't -want- to take her purely on her own terms, though when i read it, i just usually enjoy it superficially, and yah, it's not like she has any sort of strong archetypal "themes" for anyone but harry & voldemort, but *shrugs*
it's fanon!draco that i fell in love with, and that's valid enough for me. and -in my head-, the vision that's become shaped of them is very much imbued with this archetypal stuff. mostly because i -want- to see it and they -lend- themselves to it, if you want them to, because they're sketchy, like you said.
but harry is definitely the boy hero sees in so many places i would lose count trying to list them. and that's all archetype is, to me anyway. a strong resemblance to past characters, especially if said past characters featured in myth or old stories~:) and harry is harry (or, harry is the boy hero) even if you put him into ancient greece, at least, to me.
2) yah i know what you mean. to me, harry & draco are already much more "already developed" than i've ever done before, and already a challenge in that respect. what i meant about even -more- developed characters, is that there is a lot less room to maneuver. since they're not -mine-, i didn't come up with them, it's really difficult to feel comfortable knowing what to do with them. i didn't mean to say i -am- my characters, because i'm not. what i meant was, i can't write about just anyone. they have to have some resonance with me, some sort of meaning.
if i tried to write about a 70-year-old fisherman on the shores of ancient egypt, i'd have to do a boatload of research (as in, years or something-- or at least months), and even -then- it'd be easier because he wouldn't be a -particular- 70-year-old fisherman with a past and a name and a personality. there are things that fit in my head and things that don't. i'm not saying that it's good to have the character be "me"-- that's ridiculous and bad writing. but i can't write anything if they don't live in me, you know?
just because they live in me doesn't mean they -are- me. but still, either they do or they don't. i can observe a show for ages-- say, i watched probably 80% of x-files. i know these characters as well as most people. but i don't have any stories to tell about them. i'd have to force myself and struggle and it would be -bad-, that's all i'm saying. i've tried, it's just that my fic about most other people's characters isn't very good. which makes it a challenge, but one i'm not too excited about.
and as far as people's different conceptions-- i was just curious and confused about how my own relate to most other people's. i was indeed wondering if i was different in some key aspect, because i don't find i can write fanfic about any show i like, just because i really like it and dig the characters. in fact, fanfic doesn't come naturally to me at all. and there must be some sort of basic difference between writers who just "pick up" on things easily like that, and ones who have to struggle to deal with all these foreign memes.
Re: just two very short points pt 2 ><
Date: 2003-01-23 02:19 pm (UTC)still... i was kind of stumped by my own barrier in this. and, don't be fooled, that -was- mostly about me, me, me >< hee
like, some people seem to find it easy to write about things completely alien to them, but like, i don't. i need to find something to hold on to, something i understand, something that's a part of my worldview and scope of knowledge.
write what you know, they say. and that's what h/d slash is to me-- what i know. so that's what i can write.
even jossverse and x-files-verse definitely -isn't- what i know so i just wouldn't do very well writing it, even though i am superficially "familiar" with it and know the deal with the characters, supposedly.
it seems to be that for me, there needs to be a background layer of gut-level understanding, some background filler that a show just can't provide and has to come from inside you, to use to fill out the world. i suppose you could call it a "muse"~:)
and the thing is, i only have my own muses, and i have the darnest time trying to catch free-floating muses of the writers of these other shows like highlander, smallville, buffy and x-files and so on. they're just not -mine- in some basic way.
er. well, that's my spiel, whether or not it makes sense ><;;