reenka

is it strange that when i read a story where draco acts reasonable and vaguely sane and well-- normal-- i immediately go, oh. i guess all it will take is for harry to realize how reasonable (reasonably human, i mean) draco really is, and everything will click into place. i mean-- if he isn't really a pompous pathetic jerk, what's the hold-up?
    this just struck me as funny, in a way.
    plenty of perfectly sane, pleasant people don't get it on with The Boy Who Lived, or anyone else for that matter. in fact, in the `real world', whatever that is, you don't have to be a stupid git to not be getting any play. i mean, it's not even that draco is -nice-, here. he seems vaguely sarcastic and cynical, but pretty intelligent and observant, somewhat more so than normal. people like that -especially-, are misunderstood and unlucky in love. like say, probably the author. well, a number of authors, anyway.

i wonder why this sort of draco rubs me the wrong way. i can't just say, well, he's ooc, and leave it at that. i mean, say, snitch!draco is pretty ooc, but do i care? hell no. he's hilarious and so fun to read, it doesn't matter. i think the thing is, this is what i would say is the quintessential mary-sue!draco. that's what irks me.
    i'm probably guilty of doing this with some extent-- at least in the beginning i was. i'm pretty careful to try to remember that draco is like, nothing like me, and nothing like anyone i know, except possibly the uber-mean incarnation of my ex, and my childhood awed fear-fantasy of my father (this would be lucius, which gives me slight insight into draco). anyway, my harry is probably a mary-sue as far as being too introspective and eerily cynical. ergh.

a -lot- of people write their characters as preternaturally perceptive, especially if they're writing first-person pov (a real pitfall all by itself). not so much that the character actually seems to be -objective- and aware of the thoughts and feelings of others-- no, it remains self-absorbed. what i mean is, aware of -themselves-.

most people aren't all that aware of themselves. i am, and i would imagine a number of writers are, but people like draco malfoy, Slytherin Prince of Denial? hell no.

it's a classic mistake to make first-person pov characters be intimately aware of their every action, their physical appearance, their most minute emotion. when combined with this being the character of draco malfoy-- who's supposed to be closed-minded and petty and childish and desperately arrogant and so on-- it just really rings false.
    i mean, the climax in most harry/draco stories is harry's (and -draco's-, more importantly) realization that draco is human, that he isn't who he thought he was. it's so romantic, because often enough that is enough to ensure their union-- because the attraction itself, the raw material, is usually taken for granted in h/d stories. unlike some other romances, this isn't something that lends itself well to slow build-up and gradual progression from friendship to love to intimacy. no, usually it's pure magic, raw magnetism, eventually -solified- by the slow build-up of the development of draco's character into something harry could admire and respect, as well as love & be attracted to.

if draco starts -out- `human', i really don't see what the point is, and why write harry/draco, except as you get this initial sort of "ooh, this isn't supposed to be happening" sort of vibe, but it seems kind of a shallow thing. without the raw conflict of the paradox of draco, the hidden depths and the bluster and the angst and so on, i can see them being -close-, and being friends, but the passion doesn't really inspire me as to its inevitable reality.
    you can break through this barrier rather quickly.
    and yes, i realize there are several really really good stories where a) draco starts out `human'; b) they have a slow build-up to friends and then to lovers. the Trilogy & `underwater light' come to mind most immediately.

here, you don't have so much of a mary sue as comedic elements working for you. he is fascinating, charming, effervescent, thus, not easily known-- instead of being the pov character, he is the enigmatic object of desire and contemplation. this remove is rather necessary, i feel. `underwater light' told from draco's perspective would be rather limp, i'd think, its main mystery broken before it could be created in the first place. the main mystery being draco's heart.

harry doesn't strike me as a good object of mystery and fascination. he's so legendarily easy to read-- he's not going to hide anything really vital about his feelings. were there anything to know, it's almost a given draco's going to be aware of it, unless he's a complete dumbass, heheheh.

    anyway.
    *sigh* once again, i've posted this here instead of in

metapotter. hee. the lure of greater readership is really nothing to sneeze at ><;;

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

silviakundera.livejournal.com

it's a classic mistake to make first-person pov characters be intimately aware of their every action, their physical appearance, their most minute emotion.

Yes, yes. and also: YES.

A *good* POV story shows you only what that character is capable of knowing. They shouldn't be able to read anyone with 100% accurracy, including themselves. Tight POV, that's what makes a good story.

i mean, the climax in most harry/draco stories is harry's (and -draco's-, more importantly) realization that draco is human, that he isn't who he thought he was.

See, what I REALLY want to read -- and hopefully write some soon -- is fic where they both realize that Draco is. well. Exactly who he is. He's Draco. And I want Harry to love him for it. [which is sort of how all of my three comedic fics go, now that I think of it...]

To me, THAT is the essence of romance. Loving someone even though he or she is an asshole and stubborn and clumsy and not very funny, ect. ect. Loving someone because they make you feel good about yourself, because they're useful, because they treat you well, because they're nice... well, that seems a rather self-interested buisness. *grins* [paraphrased and stolen from Milan Kundera]

I just... don't get that closure and good vibe off fic where Draco turns out "Not Bad After All" and pays penance for all of his wrong doing. I want Harry to love Draco's whiny little brat, stuck up, crafty, immoral self! ahahaha.

**Not that I can't enjoy a bit of "the slow build-up of the development of draco's character into something harry could admire and respect, as well as love & be attracted to." That's nice sometimes too. But I need variety! I need both sorts of H/D! And I often feel like we only get the one.

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

hee~! a `self-interested business' *grins* i really must read him, after all~:)
that's a perfect way to put it. seems the very opposite of the supposed -challenge- of the h/d pairing. anyone can love an artistic, perceptive, lonely soul who will be loyal and true if only you gave him the chance. *laughs*
and -yes-! is so want someone (read: you in particular, heh) to write the definitive-- the great-- the One True Story, where we get to see an in-character harry love an in-character draco.
that just really would hit the spot :D

although i dunno if you could do justice to it in a ficlet *grins*
that's the other thing with that particular story-- it was a pretty short story. and if you're going to do `he's human and reasonable and admirable' now sort of draco, you really do need an epic. *smirks* draco's gonna need time for that sort of trick. ahahahah.
it seems almost-- to defeat the purpose, to have draco -start out- like that.
i mean, what's the fun in it, then? harry might as well be with hermione. *laughs* except she's not as pretty or as cynical. this starts to remind me of young snape, except more delicate. *snorts*

imperfect, fallible characters are really the mark of great writing. *sigh*
there -are- no characters that are realistic and yet -not- all those embarrassing semi-pathetic vaguely unlovable things. everyone's a nightmare, not just hermione, ahahah

maybe that's one more reason i like harry/draco. both of them are just, seriously messed up, and who'd even want them except each other. ahahah :D 'course, we can sit there and cackle and say, `well, look at what they're missing, all those others', but really, what -are- they missing, even with harry ><;; eheheh
such a basketcase he is :D hee. although i disagree with

ethrosdemon about him being psychotic. you really don't need to go that far. being a sad, voldemort-obsessed quidditch freak with no grace or sense of self-preservation is probably enough to dog anyone's footsteps ^^;
hee~:)

From: (Anonymous)

Oh, wow. Really, wow. You don't know me, but I really just had to respond to this. I've just spent the afternoon writing 10,000 words of utter crap. It's epistolary and third person, though mostly epistolary (in the form of journal entires) and I've now realised that after reading your post, that damn, he's just way too aware of himself, and far too perceptive. *Cries*. I don't think this fic will ever see the light of day now.
But thanks for the post anyway. I'm going to go and _try_ and redeem the fic for the heck of it, though I think it's going to be blatantly impossible.

Jooles

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

eek~! wow, i didn't imagine i could be so influential ><;;
but really, um. i know how that goes. it's easy to overreact while one's in the middle of wrestling/writing with a story. i personally tend to have a love/hate relationship with them, and am easily swayed ><
but perceptiveness itself shouldn't be -too- bad, depending on circumstances.
the one blatant example in terms of h/d fics that i can think of, that "worked" (sort of) was `love ridden'. now -that- was one uber-perceptive harry & draco. it worked, because well-- it they were still dumbasses anyway. although it was a bit ..er..funny, the way harry -deduced- draco wanted to be his lover ^^ just like that :D
but yeah. i remember, my first hp fanfic was draco pov, journal entries. yah.

i can relate. but it's also a good exercise to get into the mind of the character, if nothing else. you can sort of -use- it as a template, and pick and choose what you leave in the final product, but this way you (the -writer-) know what's Really Going On, which can definitely help ^^;
god luck~:)

~reena

From: (Anonymous)

Don't take it personally. It was mainly just a bit of an eye-opener. Anyway, it's early days and all that. I personally like the writing at the time. It's after I stop, and think about it that I realise that I've written a bunch of crap. Not always. But realise that things just don't flow and are too obvious to be realistic.
Thanks anyway.

Jooles

From:

ashkitty.livejournal.com

Reena love, I just have to ask--how on earth is it you're enjoying Splendour Falls? I think I must be using every plot and characterisation pet peeve you post about here!

*tickles, snugs*

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

teehee. *bounces* well, i have to admit-- i even liked `the beginning' (the fic i was going off about). hee. am sucker for good writing and emotion~:)
as to why i enjoy `splendour falls'-- well your draco isn't really as transparent as all that-- he doesn't seem to be a click away from being harry's love-mate or anything. *chortles*
i mean-- yah, like i told you, he seems halfway to the goal of most h/d fics-- thinking for himself, rejecting "evil" and so on-- but he's still kind of... um... lost, on a personal front.
in fact, you haven't gone -into- his personal front, so much.
i mean... you made him sort of more intelligent and introspective and calculating than canon!draco, but then, lots of dracos are like that, actually. your isn't some cookie-cutter mary-sue, he's just-- traveling his own path, like you'd said~:)
heheh i often come off as more rigid than i am, probably. if you only -knew- all the badfic (according to my `standards') i've thoroughly enjoyed :D ahaha
not that i'm at all saying SF is badfic, just-- enjoyment is mostly dependent on writing quality for me. it's -later-, when i -think- about it, i end up nitpicking it and so on. your writing is so smooth, and your characterizations almost always seamless, so that one doesn't feel like questioning, and just kind of going with the flow.

i was a little jangled out of the flow with the passage about draco just using thought and introspection to get over his training, but if you get over that one bump, it's all smooth sailing~:)
i guess i'm saying, even though i may have `issues' with some details of your draco, overall your fic is wonderfully written and involving~:)
the fic i was reading is -also- well-written and involving. if only i could forget it was about harry & draco. ahahah :D
yours is definitely about harry & draco though. this is helped by you having more than one pov, so you don't get stuck in the head of introspective!wunderkind!draco all the time. like say, we get quality time with ron and flashes of harry & so on~:)

i'm so looking forward to actual h/d interaction, too.
since it won't be totally filtered through draco all the time (i'm guessing), it not being first-person pov, it should be fun to watch draco's world tilt~:)

hee~:) plus, my bark is tougher than my bite :D hee. *schnoogles*

From:

unstasis.livejournal.com

I guess the thing is that peope (and Harry especially in some weird ways (and Draco in perhaps some even weirder ways) can definitely be very aware themselves (too much of this and you have paranoid!Harry which I think is pretty cannon even (though "you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you" would definitely seem to apply here). I think that characters should be like ourselves, or at least the potential of ourselves tobe able to see all sorts of things. And we should be able percieve what they can mean to the characters. But you have to remember that everyhrting they see might not be "right" (as in a discovery that leads the plot the "right" way (ieek if you've ever role played when the GM when they get frustrated because the players aren't going along with his hidden plan (ie plot))), but its still seeing. I think tat's definitely where the the "humor" can come in with a highly aware character, that keeps finding an alternate way to go (perhaps messing up depending on your pov) and the plot almost has to smack him the face before he gets it (though that might be "stupider" less perceptive than Harry might really be.. I guess just try to get in the characters heads (or make up plausable ones if you're going with a character that needs a lot of fleshing out (like Draco, where if you're using canon most of the clues about his personality are very indirect almost liek a mystery novel to figure out if not nonexistant or wishful)) and then decide what and how they would be seeing. And then decide how and if they react (both Hand Das well as Ron and even Neville it could be imagined have some pretty deep repressing issues, and don't be afraid of them doing anything or knowing anytingunless its ooc. And if ther like Sherlock Holmes have them be wrong even if it is seemingly the only logical conclusion, because so many of these characters (with the exception of Hermione and possibly Dumbledor (though he's hiding something, though that's maybe overly thoughtful for what in a way is not as good of fodder to chew (the original books) as the large response its been given (but its a very pretty response all the same, in many if not most ways, outshining the original).

Umm and as I guess the great Earnest P. Warrel has said:
"You know what I mean?"