~~till death do us part, indeed.
Sep. 10th, 2002 03:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaforgive me for this, but it's been stuck in my head, so....
``Love and marriage, love and marriage
Go together like a horse and carriage
This I tell you brother
You can't have one without the other"
[sorry 'bout that]
and of course, this being me, it got me thinking 'bout harry & draco.
because, everyone agrees, right, that their love is sonotlikethat. and. well. that kind of bothers me.
there's this feeling like we're (as a fandom) reading/writing m/m romance because we (at least partly) want to get away from the "conventions" of "regular", or het pairings. because that's where you go if you want eternity-type things, right? this is all about the moment-- that first moment, getting to it, staying on top of it, attaining the bliss, for just that moment in time, when they touch. when they say, "yes". and then, after that, the story is kind of over, isn't it? it's boring. we got what we came for. and well, that seems kind of shallow, all of a sudden.
it's like we're using them. it's like because they're two guys, they don't have the same emotions they would were they with a girl, whom they'd want to marry. i mean, it seems likely enough that were he with say, ginny (*shudder*) or even hermione, harry would be the marrying kind. the stable kind.
there was a fic (i don't remember the name. `the marks we bear', maybe? not sure-), where this was actually addressed. harry was depressed because well, the whole white-picket-fence-and-a-family dream he's had was pretty much impossible now. he's off into the wide scary world of no-strings love. it makes sense to me, that he'd want a family. and draco-- he's expected, he must've grown up with the expectation that of course he'd produce an heir. so for different reasons, they must've thought of love & marriage, either together or separately (most likely separately for draco, together for harry), at some point. this is almost making me think-- as much as i like stories where they mostly hate each other, i feel bad. i have a soft spot, after all, for stories where some way is found for them to form a friendship. they both need it-- this sort of "normal" relationship-- the sort of stability that just a friendship implies. the sort of thing where, even if i don't fuck you, i'll still talk to you. i'll still be there for you.
but, we doom the "stable" one by pairing him with the "evil", unstable one, right? what does any of this say about our views on relationships, anyway? because, in real life, most of us don't want to just have these painful, intense affairs that rip our hearts out and stomp on them, fill us with hate and lust, and then leave us in the dust, bedazzled and confused, and nothing like what we used to be. well... ok maybe some of us do.....
not that fiction is about writing about what you want to happen, of course. it's all about truth, and good stories, and conflict makes a good story, etc. of course, this sense of "but if it's a forever sort of love, the conflict goes away", bothers me. partly because i guess i feel like that. almost all my favorite romances have been of the impossible kind, of the star-crossed kind, of the rip-your-heart-out kind. i like harry when he's less stable, more pissed, more snarky, more damaged. i don't want to look into the future, where it's all finally ok, as much as i like (if that's the word) dwelling on the "present" where everything is messed up and their sense of identity is deeply in question.
but to delegate "normal" human relationships to the het people is kind of... not good, it seems to me, or maybe just unhealthy in some hard-to-pin-down way. that's why i need the humor and fluff and lightness in stories that i like, just to give it that sense of normality that can be swallowed up by all the melodrama of the situation. no one really wants to read harry & draco, 15 years later, not even me. and only one person that i know of has written them after 20 years together or so (i don't remember the fic name, but they were both professors at hogwarts and it was very sweet). and only![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ivyblossom has really yet finished a story spanning at least 5 years of them being together, somewhat approaching a stable relationship, that goes beyond "the moment".
this whole het=marriage/fluff thing is really making it difficult to finish my little insignificant ron/hermione ficlet. it's just a lot easier writing angst and self-doubt and "i hate you" and "i want to kick your ass" and "damn you, arg, roar", than just normal non-over-the-top conflict, that gets normally resolved.
fanfic is sort of in this limbo-land, anyway, where the sort of follow-through largely expected from "mainstream" commercial literature is mostly disregarded in favor of shedding light on the particulars of a shared world. you don't need to say everything. it's ok just kind of hopping and skipping and leaving the reader to fill in the blanks. and while i'm ok with that, and enjoy it....
it's just funny. i'm staring at this right now, because it's my wallpaper-- and it's ip!harry&draco, and of course harry is holding this glowing golden ring. and it's just kind of ironic, isn't it? i mean, both handcuffs and rings-- symbols of binding. two people bound together. i mean, suuure, handcuffs are a little over-the-top, but, same idea, really, isn't it. which is why i'd actually say `irresistible poison' is actually so compelling to me. it's got all the angst and miraculousness and impossibilties of what one wants out of a m/m romance-- but all the usual needs and wants and dreams, inscribed deeply within it, of any two people in love.
well-- symbolically. it's not like harry ever said anything to the effect of "you and me, forever, babe", but. you just know he feels it, anyway.
it's not only love-- that's friendship, too. like, it's not so much marriage-talk i'd want to see, but this sort of feeling that yes love means wanting to be with the person for always-- or, not wanting-- having to be with the person, for always. not being a thing you choose-- it chooses you. you are bound, ring or no ring. i think really, the marriage/rings/promises ("i'd follow you to the gates of hell", same bloody deal) are just a formality. ha...! so like. really. draco's saying that in that quote from Draco Veritas, is really equivalent to like, a proposal of marriage, or a pledge of eternity, or something like that. ha..! i love it.
ok, because let's just run this through for a sec....
as the "traditional" ceremony has it, ``...to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish till death do us part"-- hm. sounds familiar. and then, ``...and this is my solemn vow." *grins*
not saying anything ^.^
i don't know what i'm saying, anyway. i guess--
i just think devotion is really an intrinsic part of Love, and isn't sappy or trite or "hettish". i think while conflict is what we expect from the Adversary pairings, it shortchanges love (and their love in particular), to just... kind of... have it be so immature, all the time. even though i like immature. heh.
and also, because there are so many AUs and future stories and "20 years later" stories in like, all the other fandoms, slash or not. it's just-- the future isn't so bad. is it? things can still be interesting even after you admit you don't hate each other..... right? er. well. i hope so, anyway ^.^
~~
``When I was a child I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child. When I became an adult, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly - as in a mirror - but then we shall see face to face. At present I know partially, then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain- these three- but the greatest of these is love. "
~~from the Corinthians [er. i just love the quote, in spite of the source.]
``Love and marriage, love and marriage
Go together like a horse and carriage
This I tell you brother
You can't have one without the other"
[sorry 'bout that]
and of course, this being me, it got me thinking 'bout harry & draco.
because, everyone agrees, right, that their love is sonotlikethat. and. well. that kind of bothers me.
there's this feeling like we're (as a fandom) reading/writing m/m romance because we (at least partly) want to get away from the "conventions" of "regular", or het pairings. because that's where you go if you want eternity-type things, right? this is all about the moment-- that first moment, getting to it, staying on top of it, attaining the bliss, for just that moment in time, when they touch. when they say, "yes". and then, after that, the story is kind of over, isn't it? it's boring. we got what we came for. and well, that seems kind of shallow, all of a sudden.
it's like we're using them. it's like because they're two guys, they don't have the same emotions they would were they with a girl, whom they'd want to marry. i mean, it seems likely enough that were he with say, ginny (*shudder*) or even hermione, harry would be the marrying kind. the stable kind.
there was a fic (i don't remember the name. `the marks we bear', maybe? not sure-), where this was actually addressed. harry was depressed because well, the whole white-picket-fence-and-a-family dream he's had was pretty much impossible now. he's off into the wide scary world of no-strings love. it makes sense to me, that he'd want a family. and draco-- he's expected, he must've grown up with the expectation that of course he'd produce an heir. so for different reasons, they must've thought of love & marriage, either together or separately (most likely separately for draco, together for harry), at some point. this is almost making me think-- as much as i like stories where they mostly hate each other, i feel bad. i have a soft spot, after all, for stories where some way is found for them to form a friendship. they both need it-- this sort of "normal" relationship-- the sort of stability that just a friendship implies. the sort of thing where, even if i don't fuck you, i'll still talk to you. i'll still be there for you.
but, we doom the "stable" one by pairing him with the "evil", unstable one, right? what does any of this say about our views on relationships, anyway? because, in real life, most of us don't want to just have these painful, intense affairs that rip our hearts out and stomp on them, fill us with hate and lust, and then leave us in the dust, bedazzled and confused, and nothing like what we used to be. well... ok maybe some of us do.....
not that fiction is about writing about what you want to happen, of course. it's all about truth, and good stories, and conflict makes a good story, etc. of course, this sense of "but if it's a forever sort of love, the conflict goes away", bothers me. partly because i guess i feel like that. almost all my favorite romances have been of the impossible kind, of the star-crossed kind, of the rip-your-heart-out kind. i like harry when he's less stable, more pissed, more snarky, more damaged. i don't want to look into the future, where it's all finally ok, as much as i like (if that's the word) dwelling on the "present" where everything is messed up and their sense of identity is deeply in question.
but to delegate "normal" human relationships to the het people is kind of... not good, it seems to me, or maybe just unhealthy in some hard-to-pin-down way. that's why i need the humor and fluff and lightness in stories that i like, just to give it that sense of normality that can be swallowed up by all the melodrama of the situation. no one really wants to read harry & draco, 15 years later, not even me. and only one person that i know of has written them after 20 years together or so (i don't remember the fic name, but they were both professors at hogwarts and it was very sweet). and only
ivyblossom has really yet finished a story spanning at least 5 years of them being together, somewhat approaching a stable relationship, that goes beyond "the moment". this whole het=marriage/fluff thing is really making it difficult to finish my little insignificant ron/hermione ficlet. it's just a lot easier writing angst and self-doubt and "i hate you" and "i want to kick your ass" and "damn you, arg, roar", than just normal non-over-the-top conflict, that gets normally resolved.
fanfic is sort of in this limbo-land, anyway, where the sort of follow-through largely expected from "mainstream" commercial literature is mostly disregarded in favor of shedding light on the particulars of a shared world. you don't need to say everything. it's ok just kind of hopping and skipping and leaving the reader to fill in the blanks. and while i'm ok with that, and enjoy it....
it's just funny. i'm staring at this right now, because it's my wallpaper-- and it's ip!harry&draco, and of course harry is holding this glowing golden ring. and it's just kind of ironic, isn't it? i mean, both handcuffs and rings-- symbols of binding. two people bound together. i mean, suuure, handcuffs are a little over-the-top, but, same idea, really, isn't it. which is why i'd actually say `irresistible poison' is actually so compelling to me. it's got all the angst and miraculousness and impossibilties of what one wants out of a m/m romance-- but all the usual needs and wants and dreams, inscribed deeply within it, of any two people in love.
well-- symbolically. it's not like harry ever said anything to the effect of "you and me, forever, babe", but. you just know he feels it, anyway.
it's not only love-- that's friendship, too. like, it's not so much marriage-talk i'd want to see, but this sort of feeling that yes love means wanting to be with the person for always-- or, not wanting-- having to be with the person, for always. not being a thing you choose-- it chooses you. you are bound, ring or no ring. i think really, the marriage/rings/promises ("i'd follow you to the gates of hell", same bloody deal) are just a formality. ha...! so like. really. draco's saying that in that quote from Draco Veritas, is really equivalent to like, a proposal of marriage, or a pledge of eternity, or something like that. ha..! i love it.
ok, because let's just run this through for a sec....
as the "traditional" ceremony has it, ``...to have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish till death do us part"-- hm. sounds familiar. and then, ``...and this is my solemn vow." *grins*
not saying anything ^.^
i don't know what i'm saying, anyway. i guess--
i just think devotion is really an intrinsic part of Love, and isn't sappy or trite or "hettish". i think while conflict is what we expect from the Adversary pairings, it shortchanges love (and their love in particular), to just... kind of... have it be so immature, all the time. even though i like immature. heh.
and also, because there are so many AUs and future stories and "20 years later" stories in like, all the other fandoms, slash or not. it's just-- the future isn't so bad. is it? things can still be interesting even after you admit you don't hate each other..... right? er. well. i hope so, anyway ^.^
~~
``When I was a child I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child. When I became an adult, I put aside childish things. At present we see indistinctly - as in a mirror - but then we shall see face to face. At present I know partially, then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain- these three- but the greatest of these is love. "
~~from the Corinthians [er. i just love the quote, in spite of the source.]
