reenka: (DEMON LLAMAS RULE!)
[personal profile] reenka
I saw this quote by Pauline Kael in another lj and it got me thinking in a way a slew of recent meta posts on the subject haven't managed to: "Irresponsibility is part of the pleasure of all art; it is the part the schools can't recognize."

Also, from the wiki:
    Kael had a taste for anti-hero movies that violated taboos involving sex and violence, and this reportedly alienated some of her readers. She also had a strong dislike for films that she felt were manipulative or appealed in superficial ways to conventional attitudes and feelings.

Just, I think it's so true: irresponsibility as a valid, intrinsic source of pleasure, and not just of works dealing with the 'naughty', 'bad' or controversial subject-matter, but of all artworks. In dealing with weighty subjects (such as death, life, sex, riding the bus, etc), there are a million different approaches you can take, but the effective approaches will be the ones that seduce the viewer or reader in some way. Through language, rhythm, the framing of the piece or its structure, something will inevitably end up making the brutal beautiful. That's basically the nature of art, whether it's translated into myths and classic tragedies or into wham-bam hyper violent American movies (the frame changes, in other words, but the substance of the dynamic remains).

To be didactic, to be responsible, you-- the writer you or reader you-- must be emotionally detached; odd, since a lot of the people crying for greater responsibility have what may seem like excess emotional response to certain triggers in the artwork. But their response isn't to the work; it's to the basically superficial relationship the work has with their own internal world. They are seeing themselves more than they're seeing the 'picture'; in a way, all art wants you to see yourself in it, of course, but it's a self transformed. Art-- good or trashy or outright disgusting-- by its nature tends to want to seduce you, to take you on a ride, to communicate itself in bright neon colors, to reflect upon you. It's as irresponsible as any fling, as any infatuation, as anything where emotions are involved, unpredictable and seemingly universal but always feeling uniquely tailored to two specific individuals.

Once artwork becomes 'official' or 'canonized', for instance, to some extent it starts to bore most people sight unseen for exactly this reason: people don't want their entertainment-- or their art-- to be 'good' for them. I mean, on some level they do 'cause it feeds their ego and sense of self-importance a lot of times to own or be familiar with it, but the pleasure changes-- it becomes a selfish pleasure. If most people go to see the Mona Lisa, in other words, they'll stand there and go 'wow, that's the Mona Lisa! Wow!' without really... seeing it with fresh eyes, with eyes that are open to seduction. These people will probably have a more honest response to something they've got an actual emotional connection with, like a great photo of their favorite actress or a movie they watched at exactly the right time & the right place in their lives so that it clicked for them. What I'm saying is, you can't really grow to love Shakespeare, say, unless you don't care he's Shakespeare; I know this is true based on personal experience, at least. Reading Shakespeare's turns of phrase just makes me quite deliciously, squirmingly happy, because that man has a seriously hot way with words, know what I mean? He's got it going on. Mrrr. :D

Superficiality within art or entertainment always fails in terms of mass viewer response, too, forget critics. Everyone knows that mindless exploitative sequels suck, and once they cross that final boundary of being totally obvious they're just milking their audience, they stop making any money. Movies that really work are the ones that have fun with themselves; the ones where someone involved in them was on the ball, passionate about their performance, their movie. The audience always responds to this sense of 'realness', whether it's movie actors or writers or politicians or creature designers; the LoTR movies' success is a great example of passion at work, passion working. Ultimately, if you make something passionately, people will feel that love. If you make something just to make a quick sell, people may buy it, but they won't love it. The didactic or 'responsible' impulse, basically, is a way of valuing the end result (the 'message' or the 'sell') over the passion of the process, and thus is doomed not to have the emotional effect it aims for.

The other aspect of what attracts people is, of course, the shock value of stirring up controversy, of challenging assumptions and saying something bold & loud & quite possibly stupid (but LOUD). If you want to be heard, of course it helps to know your audience enough to know when not to shout, but generally speaking, people want their attention grabbed and molested roughly, with no lube :> The 'seduction' I mentioned is the 'slow and sensual' version, but that's not what you're going to be in the mood for every single time, generally. People look to both art & entertainment for everything they won't try or admit to wanting to try in real life, and have since the first mummers danced their first dance around the first campfire. Whether it takes the form of a deeply meaningful masterpiece (like, I dunno, 'A Clockwork Orange') or the next Hannibal Lecter movie, at its heart the process remains the same: get up in people's faces and scream bloody murder :>

Date: 2007-06-20 07:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kitsune13.livejournal.com
This is absolutely gorgeous, and you totally ROCK. <333

Date: 2007-06-20 08:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Yeeee~ *bluuuuush* <3!
I'm sort of surprised by my startling burst of meta >.>

Date: 2007-06-20 09:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cosmicdancer.livejournal.com
Here from [livejournal.com profile] metafandom, and I don't really have anything to say except that I love this and I think you are so, so right.

Date: 2007-06-20 10:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karathephantom.livejournal.com
Amazing. Reminds me a lot of a couple different Oscar Wilde quotes about art and beauty...

Date: 2007-06-20 10:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 2am-optimism.livejournal.com
Oh this is just great! and so very very true :)

(from [livejournal.com profile] metafandom

Date: 2007-06-20 11:38 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Artistic)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
OMG, this is great.

And when I saw the Mona Lisa? That's totally what I said. I had it on my watch face at the time too.

Date: 2007-06-21 12:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] saffronhouse.livejournal.com
thank you so much for articulating the appeal of the gorgeously irresponsible.

Date: 2007-06-21 07:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Hehe. :D I was just thinking that it's kinda depressing that mostly on either 'side' of the argument, people mostly comment to agree, so I'm a bit skeptical, but if you agree with me then I don't care who else does or doesn't. >:D

It's just, reading post after post seeing things either like this (http://eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com/203729.html?format=light) or reacting -against- things like that, I desperately want a larger picture there somewhere :> I don't even disagree that fiction can have an effect-- didn't I just post (http://lunacy.livejournal.com/355432.html) about that recently?-- but rather, people really seem to be barking up the wrong tree with the whole 'you go write your thing & I'll be over here lecturing you on how to separate the wheat from the chaff' shtick. *eyeroll* Something about the very idea of separating out the worthy from the worthless on basis other than sheer artistic merit just gives me a bad taste in my mouth. I love how 'worthless' is obviously something that isn't 'serious' or is 'pointless'. Like, obviously all the people getting twisted by the 'bad' art are only reacting to the stuff that is more Hannibal Lecter and less 'A Clockwork Orange'. Yeah, right. :>

It seems like what people are doing is totally ignoring the fact that the level of emotional investment that measures impact isn't directly correlated to 'quality' or 'seriousness'. Or like, they're assuming people are so easily manipulated that if you just write 'responsibly', they won't take the wrong things from your work. Riiiiiiiiight, because the Bible has done so well with that, ahahahahah. *facepalm*

Hahah, also, was there really a watch with 'wow, that's the Mona Lisa!' on it?? Awesome.

Date: 2007-06-21 07:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Hehe. *blushes, bows* I guess I was on the good crack this time :D

Date: 2007-06-21 07:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
....now if only people would relax about it, eh :>

Date: 2007-06-21 07:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I know the ones you mean! I guess his quotes and writings in general have been all too influential on my young & fragile mind in their time :D
Wilde himself was like living proof that it doesn't take pornography or violent taboo breaking & only a very sharp tongue to get to people :D

Date: 2007-06-21 07:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Wah. *slightly embarrassed* The truth is, decadence and beauty & their attraction need no defense except for people who wouldn't listen to me anyway, but. Yes. Thanks :D

Date: 2007-06-21 10:47 am (UTC)
ext_22: Pretty girl with a gele on (Default)
From: [identity profile] quivo.livejournal.com
It seems like what people are doing is totally ignoring the fact that the level of emotional investment that measures impact isn't directly correlated to 'quality' or 'seriousness'.

Exactly! Most of my favourite books ever tend to combine unseriousness and quality together- one is a simply delicious read because of that.

Or like, they're assuming people are so easily manipulated that if you just write 'responsibly', they won't take the wrong things from your work. Riiiiiiiiight, because the Bible has done so well with that, ahahahahah.

Yeah! Or the Koran, or pretty much every religious book in existence. *rolls eyes*

Date: 2007-06-21 08:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malafede.livejournal.com
You reminded me of this (http://web.mit.edu/cordelia/www/Poems/Leap_Before_you_look.html).

Date: 2007-06-21 08:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Hehe. ♥. Aja's favorite poem. The one in my DE!Draco novella. :D A little obsessed with it now :D

wtf? i keep doing this

Date: 2007-06-21 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malafede.livejournal.com
Or like, they're assuming people are so easily manipulated that if you just write 'responsibly', they won't take the wrong things from your work. Riiiiiiiiight, because the Bible has done so well with that, ahahahahah.

It's because telling people to write "responsibly" is a prehemptive move rather than a criticism after the fact. Criticism engages texts and start conversations whereas buzzwords "responsibility" rejects them entirely. Unless I missed it, no specific stories were addressed directly, referenced to the reading context, picked apart and criticised in terms of what they reinforce or how they are enforced by cultural and ethical problems. That's very different from how feminist and anti-racist criticism operates.

Date: 2007-06-21 08:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malafede.livejournal.com
Our dream of safety has to disappear

Yes.

Date: 2007-06-21 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Ah, so they're not engaging with what 'taking the wrong things' would entail 'cause that's a postfactum event. So it's like, 'lalala, we're not talking about that'. :> I suppose I want to give some of the people enough credit so that it's just they didn't -meant- to talk about it, or didn't -mean- to leave it out on purpose, just didn't think of it or perhaps umm, they didn't talk in specifics 'cause for sure that'd cause even bigger wank :))

Yeah, I personally don't mind critiquing texts based on cultural/ethical issues/concerns (everything from feminism onwards... as long as you're a little more advanced than 'save the childrens!!1', I'm listening). I think the problem is really trying to step the flow in the first place, however you phrase it or whatever your emphasis, whether substance or framing. I think these people think they're just going for 'solutions' rather than the 'Ivory Tower' psychologizing/philosophizing of criticism (which most readers/writers tend not to care about anyway), but there's a -reason- people only critique after the fact. In free countries :))

Date: 2007-06-21 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Yeah. Man, that's one revolutionary/inflammatory statement, right there, anti-establishment down to its center. I love it :D And of course this also means it'll mostly meet deaf ears, but.


Also, your icon is kind of cute(r). Sort of like Naruto the maddened little chipmunk. It's a bit funny that since I keep seeing it it's starting to remind me of you :))

Date: 2007-06-21 09:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malafede.livejournal.com
I stopped following the debate because of this problem exactly, that people insisted they only wanted a conversation but the only conversation was about the legitimacy of writing at all rather than what was written. I'm not just cool with criticism, I want criticism to be done about everything, precisely because it gives every partecipant authority rather than imagining an arbitrary responsible side who knows what they're doing. The only moral authority you can trust is the discourse as a whole. It's really a big issue for me. I probably wouldn't care about this at all if it didn't trigger my anti-authoritarian response.

And blah at the Ivory Tower rethoric. People always use it to justify using buzzwords instead of coherent arguments.

Date: 2007-06-21 09:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Ahahaha. Sorry, it's just-- 'not -just- cool with criticism' :D I was thinking how I could never say that and remain a card-carrying INFP ;)

Date: 2007-06-21 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malafede.livejournal.com
No, today it would be written off as trying to be lol edgy. The myths complacency creates are quite amazing.

He is. Maddened. And a chipmunk. You know I'm starting to have those hateful little thoughts about how can anyoooone haaaaate my favourite character???? That is also a prehemptive move.

Or do you mean I am a maddened little chipmunk?

Date: 2007-06-21 09:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Or do you mean I am a maddened little chipmunk?

...do you really want me to answer that??
But then, when the question is put that way, my automatic answer just wants to be yes :D

Date: 2007-06-21 09:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] malafede.livejournal.com
I am not maddened. I am dry and aloof and mysterious.

Date: 2007-06-21 10:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
See, with that icon, it just doesn't work :))

Re: wtf? i keep doing this

Date: 2007-06-21 11:43 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Looking more closely)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
I love that point--that there's no specific stories analyzed for how they might affect the reader at all. It's just this nebulous concept of writing responsibly as if anyone who doesn't know what that means practically is part of the problem.

Date: 2007-06-22 07:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Heh, well, I suppose this person (http://eye-of-a-cat.livejournal.com/203729.html?format=light) analyzed The DaVinci Code in that light with specific target points... which were the whole plot of the book, pretty much... so I guess the 'irresponsibility' there was something like misrepresentation of the Catholic Church, women, Mary Magdalene & um, Gnostics. We all know that you don't want to piss off the Gnostics :>

Date: 2007-06-23 01:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
HOW'S YOUR FIC? :))

Date: 2007-06-23 08:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
How's -your- fic?? :>

Anyway, for some reason I've been busy out of the house, but starting today (I've made a plan recently) I'm going to write 666 words per day, since my goal is 20,000 before July 21st. According to my friends, that's about 1 hour per day. Shouldn't be so bad. If I skip a day, I don't double it, though (my friend said this was bad/depressing somehow.) What do you think? We need a more detailed plan :>

Date: 2007-06-24 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
I feel like you can do it! Do you have what you're writing mapped out? When I was racing to finish Transformation sometimes I'd write like, thousands of words a night, so I feel like it's possible! Plus, I had the chapters more or less mapped out, so I knew how far I had to go (to some degree).

I haven't written at all this week, but I don't have quite as far to go. I'm resisting the urge to totally revamp the entire fic because I want it to be deeper and more canonical and deal with war and forgiveness more. THE HUGS, I HAVE TO KEEP MY FOCUS ON THE HUGS

Am going to get food and am going to work on it now!

Date: 2007-06-24 08:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Well, it can be deeper and still have hugs??? Though revamping is something else entirely :> You can compromise. Or something. ^^;

I think the problem with my fic is that it's -too- mapped out & so I just have these holes where I'm too lazy or stumped to fill in. One of these holes is unfortunately how they got together :))

But yeah, I mean, it's finished with holes. I may have to rewrite lots in editing-- we can edit/beta each other's if you like!!! That might also be fun :)) It would motivate me to edit if this meant you held my edits hostage until I sent you yours :))

War and forgiveness. MINE IS ABOUT WAR AND FORGIVENESS TOO!!! :D Sadly, though, there are no hugs :>

Date: 2007-06-25 01:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
I think I'm going to aim to finish it first, then go back and deepen if I really feel up for it. Slkdjfs it's already 57 pages in Word.

Here's a quick little piece (I can't remember what I already sent you):

‘So,’ Hermione says tentatively, ‘are we part of the Order now, or what do we call ourselves?’

‘We’re Dumbledore’s Army,’ Ginny says from the back of the crowd. Her voice rings over everyone, and they go quiet to listen. She says again, ‘We’re still Dumbledore’s Army. Just for real this time.’

There is a chorus of cheers. Harry’s face hurts from smiling.

Date: 2007-06-25 07:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Yeah that's a good idea :> Finish first. Linear thought = good!! When you're on a deadline, anyway ^^;

Ahhh, that bit is awesome. <3. Just the little details like Harry smiling at that is so... Harry. I was just reading a snippet from one of my more Draco-centric friends' fics, and that's exactly the sort of tiny detailed thing she'd have for Draco and not Harry, and it's very hard to explain, to say 'this is what I mean, this is what he's like'. But you get it, you know, which makes me happy.


...although I'm kind of afraid to ask if it's H/D or pre-slash or gen :>

Date: 2007-06-25 11:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
It could be taken as all three? I dunno. To me, it's not gen at all, but . . . who knows. You'll see!

Wah Harry. I have to re-read the books soon. Maybe I will do that before I revise this a final time (after filling in all the holes)!

Date: 2007-06-26 07:55 am (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Hmm. This is usually where I'd say "I mostly agree with you, but.." only I do agree with you. Which is great but a little disappointing (there's only so much room for discussion once all parties agree.)

I love that you quickly referenced 'A Clockwork Orange', because it's such a perfect example of why shocking books filled with brutality are not always a bad thing, an irresponsible thing, or even a pointlessly shocking, non-literary thing. It's especially important because a lot of the time, (although WFI don't seem to have noticed this) rape fics are from the perspective of the victim - that's who you're meant to empathise with. 'A Clockwork Orange' is filled with underage sex, rape, violence, murder (at least the first third) and it's seen from the perp's viewpoint./ramble

Date: 2007-06-26 08:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I really do wonder where all the people who disagree with me are. I suppose they don't think it's worth it and are all silently despising me while commenting on those 'other' posts that populated metafandom lately ;)

Hahah it's pretty amusing to me that my 'A Clockwork Orange' reference worked, 'cause I have only a basic pop-culture knowledge of it-- as in, I've never seen it nor watched the movie. *blushes* It goes to show its plot has become a part of our cultural consciousness for good or ill, right up there with Star Wars and A Breakfast at Tiffany's :D Though really, I guess my point wasn't to defend senseless violence so much as to say that the 'senseless' and the 'literary' exists on a spectrum where the difference is usually more to do with skill and generally creative passion than actual intent :> I personally try to stay away from labels like 'pointless' vs. 'meaningful', though I'm sure I used that sort of thing a lot when I was younger & angrier than I am now :> Now I compromise & find meaning in pretty much everything, heh.

Anyhow, I personally tend to find 'shocking' violent subject matter more interesting & challenging if written from the perpetators' pov, otherwise it's just sort of emotional masturbation (the way it's generally done in fandom, at least), in the sense that it tends to be hurt/comfort. It's hard for me to empathize with the sort of person-- even young person-- who'd be irrevocably changed for the worse by unconventional approaches to sexuality or violence or what have you, just 'cause I've never been that easily brainwashed, I guess. I really need someone to explain to me how that works, hahaha.

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