I think we're talking about somewhat different things? Or different aspects of the same things. So it's not that I disagree with you but rather that I just.... Should I just not talk about social issues? Hahaha because I always make 'em personal/individual issues, so it's pretty easy to show how they don't pass mustard as social commentary :> Anyway, I think I sort of said in comments above that personality (ie, ego) has as much if not more to do with how one acts as beliefs/thoughts-- like, umm, well, if you're a kind person, you will fit your greater social beliefs to represent you no matter what they are, and likewise if you're not a kind person no belief system will really help that much (though let's all give a big hand to religion repression and guilt, heh). There's clearly a complex interaction between personality, unconscious acculturation and active belief or desire (vs unconscious/repressed desire), and in no way is it a direct or inevitable equation-- and this messiness of personality vis-a-vis belief or desire, etc was actually something I was meaning to get at. It's in no way a simple transference, and at the same time I don't think there's a simple/clear separation between 'ego' and 'belief' and 'desire', because all these things influence one another.
Also, I didn't mean to refer to 'logic or reasoning processes'; the beliefs/desires/fantasies I was referring to aren't really 'thoughts' in the most straightforward sense, and perhaps I'm more familiar with this fuzziness because my own ego (as an INFP (http://www.typelogic.com/infp.html)) is dominated by introverted Feeling rather than rational thought as its commonly understood anyway. Lots of ways that I act out isn't a 'choice' per se but rather an impulse, a thoughtless gesture, a manifestation of desire-- but it's not completely irrational, either. I agree that bigotry is more dependent on various unquestioned identity constructs & memories rather than logic, but then not a whole lot of things that drive people are based in logic in the first place, and I certainly wasn't talking about logic anytime recently. :))
I definitely would never say (and haven't said) thought is a crime; I was trying to get away from the rhetoric of guilt vs innocence & crime and punishment, though. This is why I said in my post it was a philosophic ramble rather than a cry to action or a discussion of social justice-- because while for the purposes of social justice, people's bigotry is irrelevant if it causes no immediate and direct real world effect, that isn't the case for a discussion of people's psychological make-ups. My point was more related to the abstract concepts of fantasy vs reality as applied within individuals rather than how individuals apply these concepts in real life towards other people. If you know what I mean :> That's what I meant about talking about different things; the criminality aspect is but a side point to me :>
My issue was really that it frustrates me that people take this socially focused materialist pov (it doesn't matter if it doesn't do anything illegal/harmful in real life) and make it a reflection of their own natures. That is, by implication, 'I am normal, this is just fantasy'. I was meaning to challenge the definition both of 'normal' and of 'fantasy' there, mostly because this sort of thing smacks of self-righteousness at times :>
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2007-06-03 01:17 am (UTC)Also, I didn't mean to refer to 'logic or reasoning processes'; the beliefs/desires/fantasies I was referring to aren't really 'thoughts' in the most straightforward sense, and perhaps I'm more familiar with this fuzziness because my own ego (as an INFP (http://www.typelogic.com/infp.html)) is dominated by introverted Feeling rather than rational thought as its commonly understood anyway. Lots of ways that I act out isn't a 'choice' per se but rather an impulse, a thoughtless gesture, a manifestation of desire-- but it's not completely irrational, either. I agree that bigotry is more dependent on various unquestioned identity constructs & memories rather than logic, but then not a whole lot of things that drive people are based in logic in the first place, and I certainly wasn't talking about logic anytime recently. :))
I definitely would never say (and haven't said) thought is a crime; I was trying to get away from the rhetoric of guilt vs innocence & crime and punishment, though. This is why I said in my post it was a philosophic ramble rather than a cry to action or a discussion of social justice-- because while for the purposes of social justice, people's bigotry is irrelevant if it causes no immediate and direct real world effect, that isn't the case for a discussion of people's psychological make-ups. My point was more related to the abstract concepts of fantasy vs reality as applied within individuals rather than how individuals apply these concepts in real life towards other people. If you know what I mean :> That's what I meant about talking about different things; the criminality aspect is but a side point to me :>
My issue was really that it frustrates me that people take this socially focused materialist pov (it doesn't matter if it doesn't do anything illegal/harmful in real life) and make it a reflection of their own natures. That is, by implication, 'I am normal, this is just fantasy'. I was meaning to challenge the definition both of 'normal' and of 'fantasy' there, mostly because this sort of thing smacks of self-righteousness at times :>