(remus out loud)

[reenka]

On a random note, one of the things that bother me most about being part of fandom is the knowledge that by the time book 7 comes out, I'll certainly be long gone from active fannish duty & probably not posting on lj, so I'd be completely unaware of anything and everything, fandomwise, and yet. And yet I'm equally certain that I'd totally cheer when (fine, if) Ron/Hermione becomes canon-- and not even because I care all that much, man. In fact, without fandom, I probably wouldn't care about any ship whatsoever, really. It would just be to spite everyone who didn't want it to happen. It's because I'd know that so many people were like, 'grrr, argh' and that would give me some sort of perverse satisfaction. *sigh* On the other hand, I'd probably enjoy it if H/Hr happened too, in an even more perverse and messed up way, 'cause I can't stand the pairing and yet the very 'omg no!!1' nature of them being canon would amuse me. Besides, I read Derannimer's post on HPfGU about how Ron & Hermione don't banter and rather it's that Ron teases while Hermione bristles, and I've gotta say, she has a point (though that says nothing at all about the glory of H/Hr... or the fact that I like bickering too). I think the only outcome I can't possibly enjoy is Harry dying (and even that... the perversity lurks). I'm secretly an evil person, aren't I? ...All right, I lie. I'd be really upset if anything ...er... permanent happened to Harry or Ron.

Perhaps it's just that R/Hr isn't an OTP after all, if I go by musesfool's definition, where it's all about "that Oh god when it doesn't work, I want to cry". That's a great definition, because I do think that for me, an OTP doesn't necessarily mean I can't bear to imagine either of them with anyone else-- it just means that I'm painfully, ridiculously invested in the couple so that their happiness is my happiness and their pain is my pain. And even when-- especially when-- they seem doomed to fail, that's when I care about them the most. And not because of irrenconcilable differences or a falling out-- the worst (best?) is when they seem doomed to fail because they love each other so much, so much, but love isn't enough.

My most intense OTPs have always been about love making you real-- loving in spite of despair and hoping against hope and needing the impossible enough to touch it even once. And those times that one touches happiness like that-- they would be so much more precious, wouldn't they? Because the happiness lives in the midst of ruin, the way fearlessness could live in the midst of dying.

I think part of the reason I love Sirius/Remus is that they start out at polar opposite ends of the spectrum in so far as responses to fear and how one's ego works to conceal/preserve vs. project oneself onto others-- eventually greying since Sirius had to pull in on himself in Azkaban and Remus was a teacher, reaching out to others. Death may be the destination, but their journey is full of loops and shifts and turns enough to make these things more than the sum of their parts, it seems.


So to me, Sirius is the wild, untamed part of a whole that isn't afraid of living at all, and sees itself through others' reflections-- so he needed James, his brother, the one next to him-- and Peter, the one beneath him, looking up, and Remus, who-- Remus who needed him and reflected without stealing any thunder. Remus who was calm and calming, who wouldn't have gotten in the way, whom he could... use even as he helped. It's sort of complicated, now that I think about it.

Remus would be the hidden part of the ego that condenses and hides and eludes definition like it would burn, making them complementary aspects of the ego's drive to communicate. I'm much more like Remus, probably. And this really hit home when I was reading musesfool's post on hope and saying and not saying what one means and failing and trying again. I was especially thinking about the walls between those two, and the idea that after Azkaban, Sirius would take what he can get of Remus because he "knows how easily and how thoroughly Remus can shut him out when he chooses", and that's just a lot like the way I function. Like, I let people in over and over, but the more they hurt me, the less deep they can go, even though I wouldn't leave them first. Remus would never really -leave- as much as he'd be there and not there at the same time, because that's what Remus does.

This reminded me of a story I'm working on (sort of), which is what gave me my first real insight into Remus of any kind-- that there are all these things he doesn't say, for many reasons. Not because he's repressed, precisely, but because he is so enclosed within himself that he just doesn't feel the need to say them. And all those unspoken words accumulate, weighing him down like stones, turning him grey and tired and exhausted, but he wouldn't ever let go all the way because there's this fear behind the hoarding of oneself-- the fear that if one lets go, one would float away and never get oneself back again. This ties in with Remus' need to be liked-- because he's so desperate for it, and yet he has to keep something of himself, something that doesn't depend on other people. I can just -believe- that Remus loves Sirius more than Sirius could ever imagine and more than even -Remus- bothers to imagine because as long as you don't think about it, it's bearable, and he could eke out his existence and not break. Because that sort of strength-- when one separates parts of oneself from each other, as in, 'this is Moony, who needed Sirius and James to be all right' and 'this is the werewolf, who is a monstrous disease and not me' and 'this is me, Remus, who doesn't need anybody'-- it is brittle. It succeeds only as long as one maintains the necessary illusion that one can do it and one will not fall and will not be touched. And that sort of belief is the stuff of fairytale princesses who never laugh or weep-- they always do in the end, don't they?

In the end, it seems I'm just fascinated by the love-affair between hope and despair. It's not that one wins over the other-- just as the urge to communicate and withdraw goes in cycles. This all reminds me of circles, and becoming the person you need to be because that's what life teaches you. Both Remus & Sirius are the people they need to be to deal with their circumstances, right-- and the question is whether their identity is still in there, somewhere, after all that. It seems like Sirius makes everything too simple, too focused on one driving need-- to protect, to remember, to punish. And Remus overthinks things and everything becomes scattered and fragmented and complicated, so any word or expression of himself has to be weighed and balanced and compared to a countless number of other possibilities.

Not that I'm saying there are any answers here, but oh, I just love the chase after them. Who are they-- who are we, really, when we don't have to do anything, and only -want- to?

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

'Sfunny, because I don't ship R/S at all although I have recently discovered a liking for...R/J/S. Yes, it's true. but I really like them as friends and believe them. Since I do think Remus is a lot like me too (not surprising!) I can easily imagine why he would be a good friend and Sirius, and why Sirius wouldn't really want to see him as his best friend until James was gone. First because I suspect Remus is somebody Sirius had to grow into, you know? As a kid he probably thought he was okay but kind of boring, and he probably didn't think about him the way he should have (which is maybe why he probably just thought it "wouldn't bother" Remus if he used him to frighten Snape). But now, as an adult, I think he's probably much better off tat it's Remus there instead of James, not just because Remus is probably calmer, but also because when he gets frustrated he can still dream of James and pretend everything would be better if he were there.

And I totally agree about Remus removing himself--that's just yeah, just how it would be. You could share a house with Remus and be alone. That probably freaks Sirius out.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

That was really, really gorgeous and fascinating.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That strikeout part is supposed to be small. My unconscious mind is trying to wipe it out for me!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahahah I suppose the inclusion of James would make Ste love you while she bristles and hisses at the Remus part~:)))

Man, it seems like everyone wants those two in a threesome. It cracks me up, especially since I see them as such a mini-ecosystem together just based on their personalities, and yet clearly they make room, both of them (for James because James came packaged with Sirius-- and I'm willing to bet Remus wasn't really close to James-- and for Peter because someone needed to feed those egos and it wasn't going to be Remus, right?)

It kinda works though, since they were all friends, right. And that's what friends do. It's like H/R/Hr except without Ron's issues :-?

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

I will go on record as not wanting those two in a threesome!

But... you knew that. o_O

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I just don't know why nearly everyone does...! What is it...? Is it just something I can't see, what, what?
But then, I never really 'get' threesome pairings as far as really wanting them to happen. Like... but they'd -fail- and be awkward and painful and... maybe it's just too much testosterone for me, in a m/m/m thing especially o_0

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

:D More wild speculation than analysis, so I'm glad it works for you, since... you -know- them where I just kind of circle cautiously and hide in the surrounding bushes. Er, thanks, I mean :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It makes me sad to think that James was what tied them together, though it's probably true-- because Sirius needs energy to feed off of, too, and Remus isn't much with the energy-sharing, right.
But Remus wouldn't need to be seen as 'the best friend', since just being around people whom he liked (and liked him! and accepted him!) would've been enough. Not like he wanted to be -too- involved, since after all James and Sirius were kind of... wild the whole month through, unlike Remus. It's like Remus and Peter had totally different needs but similar roles as reflections. It's just that Remus had more to offer (I think), at least to Sirius, whenever Sirius (hopefully) did wake up and smell the coffee. Probably after Hogwarts. I like thinking they were close for a few years after that, though I mean, naturally they all still suspected each other but... I want them to have been happy so much I just kind of squint a lot.

Anyway, when James got with Lily after school, that would be room for Remus, I'm guessing, who wasn't going anywhere and Sirius would probably not have known what to do with himself now that James was... settling down(!!) and becoming sensible (!!!!).

I doubt Sirius would have ever had a clue about the important things, like how much he needed someone who... I dunno, someone who could set some boundaries for him, theoretically. Though really, post-Azkaban, he needed James for an entirely different reason-- as well as Remus-- just, James to remember who -he- used to be and Remus to remember who he -could- be.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

I think it's mostly a hotness thing. A lot of the time, anyway. I don't know about the other times, because it's not a thing I "get," really. ...of course, neither is the hotness thing, but I do know that a lot of the time people, when asked, answer with "it's hot!" so I assume that's why. LOL

But yeah, I don't get it either.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

*blushes*

Oi, haha. Er, thanks back at you. :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm...here's a radical thought. What if Sirius *had* Ron issues and we just don't know about it. Maybe that's part of why people Remus thought he betrayed them. Yeah, he was the rebel, but that could be overcompensation.;-)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...Sirius with Ron's issues cracks me up, man. AHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
I mean, if he had them about -James-, who is like, his other half, that'd be almost schizophrenic, wouldn't it?
I think Remus just doesn't trust his heart.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's like, maybe Sirius wouldn't have paid as much attention to Remus as he did if it wasn't for James but the friendship could still have snuck up on him. And I do think after James got married he and Remus probably did hang out a lot. There were a lot of things they had in common, but since Sirius doesn't seem very introspective he might have gone for a long time feeling generally unsure about Remus.

Though really, post-Azkaban, he needed James for an entirely different reason-- as well as Remus-- just, James to remember who -he- used to be and Remus to remember who he -could- be.

Awwwww!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think it has something to do (for me, at least) with not finding things attractive or hot if they don't seem to 'work' on any other level besides 'this would be a great one night stand'. I mean, I hope to at least see a month-long relationship happening ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

This is totally why I adore Prufrock's `Vector' so much, 'cause it's all post-Hogwarts and James is safely out of the way (muwahahah, etc) and there they are, casually buying a Christmas gift for James (who's living with Lily, of course), and it's all inside Sirius' head and how he perceives Remus-- and how sort of flabbergasted by Remus he is. I totally think he doesn't 'get' Remus, not like he gets James, but the more aware he'd be of his confusion, the more he'd try to figure it out, at least. And then maybe it would hit him like a ton of bricks (hopefully), that he, you know, -likes- Remus. (One step at a time, man.)

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

TOO MUCH TESTOSTERONE?!?!?

(and yep, that's the first comment I've made in your LJ for a verrry long time. Have been skimming through LJ at hummingbird speed for months.)

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, I mean... I'm a bad person to ask about hotness/attractiveness (because I'm apathetic about that kind of thing,) but in terms of shipping or being fond of an idea, yeah I do have to think it could actually work on some level.

So I guess we're about in the same place there, except that I HAVE NO HORMONES. O_o

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehehe. Er. Well, I've never really read a m/m/m that 'clicked' for me...? The testosterone thing was a joke, of course, as there can be no such thing ;))
...But I keep flashing back to the Methos/Kronos/Kassandra thing as the pinnacle of all threesomes everywhere. It's all your fault, you see.

And I'm just happy to see you!! So to speak. :D <3

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hormoneless porn is a thing of great interest to me, though, so it all works out~:)) It just reminds me of all the lesbians who write slash, y'know. It's like there's hotness that can be purely mental/spiritual. Or something ^^;;;

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

ROFL! Well, in fairness I don't really read/write smut, so I guess the hormoneless thing is pretty boring, in that way.

The thing with me is that I fall in love with a story. Like with Remus/Sirius, what I love is the idea of these two people who were friends and then loovers, and kept dancing with hope and loss and reunion and loss again, and never stopped loving through all of that. And of course it ends in tragedy, and I'm a big tragedy buff.

I read musesfool's entry, see, which I thought was beautiful and poignant, but also fascinating because my OTPness is so different than hers, and from most people's, I suspect. Because I don't really want happiness for them, in the end; I wouldn't love the pairing so much if it didn't end so badly. When I read POA I walked away with the distinct impression that they had been old lovers, but I didn't have any particular personal liking of the idea until the end of OotP.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I want happiness either. Hmm, I think I made a post (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/162813.html) on happily ever afters once, and what it comes down to is... I don't want them, I just want the happiness to exist in spite of everything, and love to exist in spite of everything-- time & despair & death. To kind of stand against it, maybe.

I guess what I took from her definition for myself, anyway, wasn't that need for happiness but that deep investment/transferrence of my own emotions onto theirs and vice versa...? Like, if they're unhappy, it -matters-, and it matters even more if they -can't- be happy because life tears them apart, making any time they shared more intense and meaningful, I guess...? It's like, I shipped S/R before OoTP because of `Drawing Down the Moon', but after Sirius died there were all these fics dealing with loss and memory and survival and all that, and suddenly they became -real- on a much deeper level-- sort of like Harry became more real to me after OoTP, too, 'cause he was so emotional there. It's just that I get more invested the more intensity there is between people, I guess...?

[getaway-machine.livejournal.com]

I got here through quicknote and... omg, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, YES.

What you said, what you were talking about... that's it, exactly. That's why Remus/Sirius is my OTP, whereas I like Harry/Draco, and I even only like them together, but... but they aren't my OTP, because I'm not invested in their feelings the way I am in R/S, and... wow, you said it all so much more eloquently than I could have ever hoped to do.

This post was amazing. Thank you.

[getaway-machine.livejournal.com]

[I keep messing that tag up, so sorry!]

That should be quickquote.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, see, I'm right there with you on that. It is my one bit of escapism (I don't, generally, like escapism at all) - the idea that love can survive all of that. Which I don't actually believe, because I'm a cynic. But in fiction, I believe.

Anyway, I get what you're saying. I don't do a great deal of emotional transference, I admit, but investment, yeah I think so. That might be what defines an OTP for me, as well. Although I do tend to enter "I don't want to see them with anyone else!!11!1!" territory, I admit! Even then, however, it depends on the story; sometimes you need those other people in the tale to make it meaningful. And sometimes other people are just a sideroad on the way back home.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

The bit where you said you believe in fiction I totally flashed back to the Duchess in `Vanity Fair'. *coughs* Er. But I really liked the Duchess, so <3 Ahahahah yeah, it's much easier to believe all sorts of things in fiction since one is already distancing oneself from reality & suspending disbelief about all manner of other things like magic (in fantasy) for instance. Though I sort of vacillate between being an idealist and a cynic, generally, 'cause I'm just er... contradictory like that :>

...I don't want to see my OTPs with anyone else either, of course :D Jealousy isn't something I'm above by any means, ahahah. I just don't think it's as definitive...? And also I can't talk 'cause with H/D, my Harry totally gets to 'sleep around' whereas my Draco totally doesn't, so I feel sheepish :> Though if the other person is actually -in- the story where the OTP is, then everything changes and I get all possessive (...where we enter into over-identification territory once again, heh).