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reenkaIn the end, maybe it's that I mistrust the whole device of seduction itself. The seductive personality, the romantic ideal of an irresistible touch, the supposed draw of... I dunno, dominant and experienced lovers who can sweep you off your feet. That makes me think of Harry/Snape, by the way. I mean, most H/S fic I've read (not that I've read -that- much) has Snape be all... smooth at least in one area. Even if someone's a total jerk, at least they're sexually potent, right. Seductive.
Leather trousers are "seductive", but so is a smooth voice and a commanding stare and a sleek walk and a certain sort of arrogance-- all of it's part of the fantasy package. Like a custom-tailored Fabio in all his myriad incarnations. God, I hate Fabio.
Maybe it's that I don't like it when a character is seen as "sexy" by everyone. Does that make me a freak? Unusual, anyway, right. Or at least when they seem to make some sort of game of it, and seduction is by nature a game, or rather a farce. Fake by nature, so of course a seductive Draco would seem fake-- seduction itself, charm itself, that's fake, even though there are people out there who are fake, in real life.
And anyway, no seduction can control or produce passion, which is the name of the game, isn't it?
But people seem to like it. There's a lot of popular appeal behind the concept, apparently. So most people want to be sold this untouchable superhuman sex-machine, want to idealize the sex object until it's more fantasy than reality. Human beings, at heart, are so... unlovely. They're beautiful, yes, but I don't think they're pure mind-candy, right. Like, if you really -knew- a person, you'd find out that they're not... they're not blindingly, untouchably cool and suave and funny and brilliant. They're-- we're-- all equal to each other in that regard. Our humanity makes us equal, and seduction games become irrelevant in the face of true knowledge of each other, then.
So it's it's not just fanon!Draco or seductive!Draco I don't like... I just don't like what he -does-. Being cool and sexy is a lie. It's a pretty cover on something that's raw and messy and fierce, to me. It also helps that I don't think I myself am susceptible to seduction-- it bores me. If I see a "player" and he gives me a wide sparkly grin, I roll my eyes. Why would Harry fall for that? Why would any character I respect go along with someone who had a nice ass and an experienced leer? Isn't that what fools do? What kind of satisfaction is there, having sex with a sex -object- rather than a real person with real, unlovely-beautiful feelings?
I guess I randomly went to Restrictedsection.org to see if I got any new reviews (um, no), and right next to each other, there's `Patronus' and `Sweetest Revenge', both by authors I've never heard of before. `Patronus' has a sort of lame-excuse-for-quickie-sex scenario which I find painfully cute, and the other one is all, "Oh Potter, let me pretend I'm a suave and dangerous lover whom you just can't resist". Ahahah. In contrast, it's just hilarious.
I guess my problem with the whole idea of it is that... it just seems like someone's power-trip fantasy, not anything that -happens-. Like, yes, if Draco had a thing for Harry and he wrote fics, he'd probably write himself as this sex god with a six-pack and killer eyes or something, strolling casually by Potter's side and murmuring "meet me at 11" into his ear, and Potter would shudder and blink and give in. Not that I think it's more likely that Draco would kind of say "well, I -suppose-, since you need happy thoughts for a Patronus, I'll blow you", but... as ridiculous as that is, it's still more human, to me. And human could be ridiculous, as long as it's... unlovely in some way. I mean more embarrassing and stupid than tragic and melodramatic.
Life, it seems to me, is stupid-- or funny, depending on how you look at it. Things are so messed up and complicated, but in the end it's more because people -don't- think and -don't- communicate with each other rather than because someone sits there and premeditates some particularly nasty bit of misery for someone else. Even if people -do- premeditate these things (seductions or assassinations, either works), I have a feeling things rarely go according to plan, do they. Things always get messy. The seducer gets seduced, the one seduced gets bitter and homicidal, the scales always tip-- somehow.
Maybe it's the premeditation aspect of seduction-oriented characters that bothers me. It's a lot like evil, isn't it? Sitting there and -plotting- and -scheming- to override someone's free will, to -make- them want you, even if indirectly. I mean, just hurting someone physically, even killing them doesn't seem as... dirty, somehow. Seduction is all mind-control and temporary, fake power, and it can't really be satisfying to either person, can it?
This is probably partly why I never felt the urge to write a love-potion or a soul-bond fic of some sort. Just another method of seduction, of the negation of free will. And without free will, what is love worth? What is anything worth, really? It all becomes stupid and ugly and wrong, wrong-- wrong. Living, I mean. Who'd want a life without free will? Why would they? No, that's not a rhetorical question. I really do believe in liberty or death, myself. In fact... I bet Draco values his liberty, too, so if being Death Eater meant mental slavery of some sort... I could see how he wouldn't go for it. But -Draco's- love of liberty is nothing to how much -Harry- loves it-- needs it-- fights for it.
Maybe it seems like I'm going over the top. It's not like seducing someone is really equivalent to raping them or seriously taking away their liberty in some way, is it. Is it?
Funny thing is... I don't think this implies that only fully consensual, power-balanced sex is "morally right" or whatever. It's like... if there's an honest struggle for control, if there's a fair fight, if both people have a chance-- then it's all right, no matter what happens, because there are no winners or losers in the real battle. Passion will overwhelm them both-- the desire is like a third party here. I guess it's the basic idea of a fair fight translated to sex. You can attack, attempt to disarm, thrust or parry, you can even take prisoners-- as long as the other's still feeling, so to speak. As long as you're not messing with their -will- and the power is given or won rather than taken or stolen. Maybe I've been reading too much warfic. No, I know I have. No more Gundam Wing for me :>
In a weird way, I think love and sex require as much honor, if not more, than actual fighting does. Well, ideally. These are all my ideals or morals, I guess.
As far as admitting to my own biases here-- mostly, mind-control just makes me sick on some deep, instinctual level. I am almost absolutely certain that there are two main instincts that are tied to violence in my head-- the protective instinct and the instinct for freedom. That is to say, I can be incited to violence, theoretically, if I'm feeling protective or if I'm -really- certain someone's trying to mentally manipulate someone else-- or me-- with the intent of stealing their liberty. And since I don't care about physical liberty that much-- that is to say, the ability to physically go where I please-- being sedentary as I am, all that's left is freedom of will.
To me, war is almost justified if the other party is set on inflicting some form of mental control over me or groups of people I'm protective of. 'Course, most countries' own governments do a fine job of mind-controlling their own people. Yep, the gay marriage issue fits in nicely into this paradigm. Mmm, revolution. Down with The Man!!
...So you can see how I really don't wanna see Draco as The Man. That is deeply, deeply, very very deeply unsexy to the point of me then wanting to do untold violence to his person. Hopefully his balls and then some. I am secretly rather vicious in these cases :D
And yes, I admit that this has absolutely nothing to do with seducer!Draco anymore, and maybe it never really did :>
Leather trousers are "seductive", but so is a smooth voice and a commanding stare and a sleek walk and a certain sort of arrogance-- all of it's part of the fantasy package. Like a custom-tailored Fabio in all his myriad incarnations. God, I hate Fabio.
Maybe it's that I don't like it when a character is seen as "sexy" by everyone. Does that make me a freak? Unusual, anyway, right. Or at least when they seem to make some sort of game of it, and seduction is by nature a game, or rather a farce. Fake by nature, so of course a seductive Draco would seem fake-- seduction itself, charm itself, that's fake, even though there are people out there who are fake, in real life.
And anyway, no seduction can control or produce passion, which is the name of the game, isn't it?
But people seem to like it. There's a lot of popular appeal behind the concept, apparently. So most people want to be sold this untouchable superhuman sex-machine, want to idealize the sex object until it's more fantasy than reality. Human beings, at heart, are so... unlovely. They're beautiful, yes, but I don't think they're pure mind-candy, right. Like, if you really -knew- a person, you'd find out that they're not... they're not blindingly, untouchably cool and suave and funny and brilliant. They're-- we're-- all equal to each other in that regard. Our humanity makes us equal, and seduction games become irrelevant in the face of true knowledge of each other, then.
So it's it's not just fanon!Draco or seductive!Draco I don't like... I just don't like what he -does-. Being cool and sexy is a lie. It's a pretty cover on something that's raw and messy and fierce, to me. It also helps that I don't think I myself am susceptible to seduction-- it bores me. If I see a "player" and he gives me a wide sparkly grin, I roll my eyes. Why would Harry fall for that? Why would any character I respect go along with someone who had a nice ass and an experienced leer? Isn't that what fools do? What kind of satisfaction is there, having sex with a sex -object- rather than a real person with real, unlovely-beautiful feelings?
I guess I randomly went to Restrictedsection.org to see if I got any new reviews (um, no), and right next to each other, there's `Patronus' and `Sweetest Revenge', both by authors I've never heard of before. `Patronus' has a sort of lame-excuse-for-quickie-sex scenario which I find painfully cute, and the other one is all, "Oh Potter, let me pretend I'm a suave and dangerous lover whom you just can't resist". Ahahah. In contrast, it's just hilarious.
I guess my problem with the whole idea of it is that... it just seems like someone's power-trip fantasy, not anything that -happens-. Like, yes, if Draco had a thing for Harry and he wrote fics, he'd probably write himself as this sex god with a six-pack and killer eyes or something, strolling casually by Potter's side and murmuring "meet me at 11" into his ear, and Potter would shudder and blink and give in. Not that I think it's more likely that Draco would kind of say "well, I -suppose-, since you need happy thoughts for a Patronus, I'll blow you", but... as ridiculous as that is, it's still more human, to me. And human could be ridiculous, as long as it's... unlovely in some way. I mean more embarrassing and stupid than tragic and melodramatic.
Life, it seems to me, is stupid-- or funny, depending on how you look at it. Things are so messed up and complicated, but in the end it's more because people -don't- think and -don't- communicate with each other rather than because someone sits there and premeditates some particularly nasty bit of misery for someone else. Even if people -do- premeditate these things (seductions or assassinations, either works), I have a feeling things rarely go according to plan, do they. Things always get messy. The seducer gets seduced, the one seduced gets bitter and homicidal, the scales always tip-- somehow.
Maybe it's the premeditation aspect of seduction-oriented characters that bothers me. It's a lot like evil, isn't it? Sitting there and -plotting- and -scheming- to override someone's free will, to -make- them want you, even if indirectly. I mean, just hurting someone physically, even killing them doesn't seem as... dirty, somehow. Seduction is all mind-control and temporary, fake power, and it can't really be satisfying to either person, can it?
This is probably partly why I never felt the urge to write a love-potion or a soul-bond fic of some sort. Just another method of seduction, of the negation of free will. And without free will, what is love worth? What is anything worth, really? It all becomes stupid and ugly and wrong, wrong-- wrong. Living, I mean. Who'd want a life without free will? Why would they? No, that's not a rhetorical question. I really do believe in liberty or death, myself. In fact... I bet Draco values his liberty, too, so if being Death Eater meant mental slavery of some sort... I could see how he wouldn't go for it. But -Draco's- love of liberty is nothing to how much -Harry- loves it-- needs it-- fights for it.
Maybe it seems like I'm going over the top. It's not like seducing someone is really equivalent to raping them or seriously taking away their liberty in some way, is it. Is it?
Funny thing is... I don't think this implies that only fully consensual, power-balanced sex is "morally right" or whatever. It's like... if there's an honest struggle for control, if there's a fair fight, if both people have a chance-- then it's all right, no matter what happens, because there are no winners or losers in the real battle. Passion will overwhelm them both-- the desire is like a third party here. I guess it's the basic idea of a fair fight translated to sex. You can attack, attempt to disarm, thrust or parry, you can even take prisoners-- as long as the other's still feeling, so to speak. As long as you're not messing with their -will- and the power is given or won rather than taken or stolen. Maybe I've been reading too much warfic. No, I know I have. No more Gundam Wing for me :>
In a weird way, I think love and sex require as much honor, if not more, than actual fighting does. Well, ideally. These are all my ideals or morals, I guess.
As far as admitting to my own biases here-- mostly, mind-control just makes me sick on some deep, instinctual level. I am almost absolutely certain that there are two main instincts that are tied to violence in my head-- the protective instinct and the instinct for freedom. That is to say, I can be incited to violence, theoretically, if I'm feeling protective or if I'm -really- certain someone's trying to mentally manipulate someone else-- or me-- with the intent of stealing their liberty. And since I don't care about physical liberty that much-- that is to say, the ability to physically go where I please-- being sedentary as I am, all that's left is freedom of will.
To me, war is almost justified if the other party is set on inflicting some form of mental control over me or groups of people I'm protective of. 'Course, most countries' own governments do a fine job of mind-controlling their own people. Yep, the gay marriage issue fits in nicely into this paradigm. Mmm, revolution. Down with The Man!!
...So you can see how I really don't wanna see Draco as The Man. That is deeply, deeply, very very deeply unsexy to the point of me then wanting to do untold violence to his person. Hopefully his balls and then some. I am secretly rather vicious in these cases :D
And yes, I admit that this has absolutely nothing to do with seducer!Draco anymore, and maybe it never really did :>
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no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 04:59 am (UTC)HARRY: Oh my God, Dementors coming, all doomed, no happy thoughts! Or fairy dust. DOOMED!
DRACO: All right, all right, I'll blow you.
HARRY: WSKTJFHRL?
DRACO: No, no, seriously, I don't mind. You people said that I had to start contributing now that I was on the side of light, and I totally will.
HARRY: We just meant you might help sometimes, instead of eating all the cottage cheese and moaning about your dad cutting off your pocket money.
DRACO: And I will help, absolutely. Blow jobs for everyone!
RON: Eeeep.
DRACO: Except the Weasleys.
BILL: You know many people find me very attractive.
DRACO: There are thousands of you, I'd get lockjaw.
HARRY: I DO NOT WANT A BLOWJOB.
DRACO: Shyeah. Right.
HARRY: I am very happy with Ginny Weasley, and she satisfies me completely in bed!
DRACO: Weasleys do it in bed? I always presumed they procreated in the muck.
RON: Guys, guys!
BILL: BECAUSE WE ARE SO VERY ATTRACTIVE OUR PARTNERS CANNOT WAIT.
HARRY: No, get off, Draco, honestly, shoo.
DRACO: But Dumbledore said I had to use my special talents to help the forces of good and I can't think what else he could have meant!
HARRY: He didn't mean this! Knowing Dumbledore and his... sly, oblique, mysterious plans... I'm almost... 67 per cent sure he didn't mean this...
RON: DEMENTORS! RIGHT NOW.
HARRY: Oh God, doom!
DRACO: Do any of *them* want a blowjob?
... I really have to stop doing this. don't I.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 10:20 am (UTC)But, isn't that the whole point of fantasy? It's not real. Granted, seduction is complicated in real life, but it has its place in some fanfiction, which is fantasy based, more or less, on fictional characters and settings. How much more removed from reality could it get? I really don't read fics that get into alot of non-consensual behavior, but even so, I see a distinct difference between mind control and seduction.
"seduction itself, charm itself, that's fake"
Certainly, it can be. But charm isn't always fake. Some people are just naturally charming; they don't try to be, they just are.
"And yes, I admit that this has absolutely nothing to do with seducer!Draco anymore, and maybe it never really did :> "
Yes, I think you may be right! Maybe you have read too many war fics! ;)
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 11:36 am (UTC)I do endeavor to prove that any sort of fantasy can be psychologically valid and realistic on that level. I do love situational fantasy more than any other genre, but psychological fantasy seems... to disturb me for some reason. That is to say, I don't find it healthy and any relationship that exists within it is automatically questionable. And I get sensitive when that's applied to an OTP, I suppose.
I realize that, of course, some people are naturally charming, but I wasn't talking about that. What was important was the intent to control that's implied in -trying- to charm (as in the fic I referenced). Where the charm is being -used- to -get- something, that's when it doesn't even matter if it's natural or not. In that case, it does seem related to mind-control, though admittedly it's the less common type of "charm", though I'm not sure I'd call it charm in the regular sense.
All in all, I was being both too realistic and too lost in my own little world of definitions, I guess :>
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 11:42 am (UTC)...
Oh... Oh god. This is priceless! :D Oh.... ohboy. You should write it out. Oh god... Weasleys.......... *dead* Oh man, and here I thought that the original Patronus!Draco-fic had something missing. I think it was the Weasleys :D
Possibly, you know, when push comes to shove (er...) Draco would just attach himself to his crotch (Harry's, 'cause I'm biased and also because if he did it to Ron there'd be bodily damage involved). And. Harry'd be like, "GET OFF, GET OFF!!" And Draco would mumble, "I'm TRYING, I'm TRYING!!"
Heh. Anything for a bad joke, man.
<333333333333 Never stop. :D One of these days, you might crack and write me comedy-porn-on-crack, and then... then I could die happy :D
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 12:58 pm (UTC)Joke Teller Person: Ask me if I'm a tree.
Poor Innocent Victim: Uhhh, okay. Are you a tree?
JTP: ...No.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 01:02 pm (UTC)that is so wrong, and i don't even know why -.-
*slightly scarred* ^^;
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 01:26 pm (UTC)I just read
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 02:09 pm (UTC)I suppose there's a difference between seduction as "play" and... well... serious seduction where one person has some sort of ulterior motive and the other person has high levels of resistance.
Here, the balance of power was that of equals, more or less, wasn't it? Harry might have "submitted", but not really-- it wasn't a sense of -giving in- to Malfoy-- more to his own desires. And also, he immediately bounced back and wanted to make -Malfoy- "give in"-- so there's a sense of a (friendly) game of tug-of-war, I suppose. Like, neither of them loses and both of them wins, in this situation. Malfoy may have one up on Potter (sort of), but really, they're both merely following their impulses, even though Malfoy "took prisoners" (in my earlier metaphor), so to speak.
Malfoy wasn't really being subtle or devious, which is what I associate with seduction, myself. He was merely being... er... coy? Teasing, I suppose, without really holding back anything thus implied or promised. He seemed to be as fully into it as Harry was, he was just not getting off the same way~:)
So... while similar on the surface, no, it's not at all what I was talking about. This is like... a very very light playful version that doesn't apply to any of my issues (which may still be silly, I admit that).
As far as fantasy types... I would say it's much more psychologically "realistic" than the other fic, even though I wouldn't call it hardened realism or anything. I think it retains both their senses of identity and both boys' free will. They're a bit lighter hearted, but they're recognizable within the situation. I mean, liberties were definitely taken, but. I wouldn't say it's not something that could happen in some cases, I guess. Though still unlikely, of course, and a situational fantasy of a sort, it's only a psychological fantasy for these two canonically. That is to say, they're OOC but not... unreal :>
no subject
Date: 2004-04-10 09:20 pm (UTC)That's true. Maybe seduction is too strong a word in this and similar instances. Or it could just be that there are different levels of seduction: a playful, sexual teasing at one end and Vicomte de Valmont from Dangerous Liasons at the other.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-11 01:15 pm (UTC)