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[personal profile] reenka
You know, before I spent too long in fandom, I had squicks. Now I just have preferences and a whole lot of pet-peeves, where it's just that you'd have to work harder to please me if I've a peeve about it. Like, y'know, I remember in the good old days, where Kirk/Spock sex pretty much squicked me, even if I liked the idea of the pairing a lot; I couldn't get over my adolescent vision of them. I remember when Ron/Draco and Snape/Draco and even Harry/Hermione seemed Deeply Wrong... and now I just don't prefer them. I remember when H/D was the alpha and omega of my fannish universe and I had all these ideas about how it 'should' and 'shouldn't' be done (and okay, I still have those), but I've become quite lax about thumping my chest and hyperventilating, alas.

Anyway, I meant to talk about a specific comment in this Wincest squick post, but it also made me think a bit, 'cause yeah, the sheer prevalence of that reading of a show's canon bothers me a bit-- though that's my 'canon, bitches!' thing, not any anti-incest squick, exactly; actually, I don't think I've ever had a 'traditional' squick in the sense that it's based on my real-life beliefs (I mean, I tend to like characters in fiction I'd probably clobber in real life, for a start). Like, if it's well-written, anything challenging or transgressive can only make the story more interesting, as far as I'm concerned; for examples, look to the many instances of incest in classic literature and also some of the best genre lit of today (okay, mainly Song of Ice and Fire). I cannot imagine seriously reading something good and then stopping and going, 'but this is WRONG, HOW COULD THIS BE??! NOOOoooo'. If I really felt like that, I mean, I wouldn't have graduated from books for toddlers, because isn't there always something unpleasant and 'wrong' and unfair even in (good and/or classic) children's books?

    (Btw, this is where some of my friends woujd just say I'm not a critical enough reader, so I clearly suck. Hehe. Because yeah, while I was careful to say 'well-written' and 'good' stories, the truth is I also suspend a lot of judgment/personal issues/disbelief when reading stuff I just... like a lot for whatever reason. I wouldn't call it a 'kink'; like, I don't have a 'kink' for HP canon, y'know? Most of the time the only reason I'm critical is when I either really love something or really hate it, usually because of aesthetic/story-construction reasons. This mostly applies to stuff that's really bad. How do I explain it. It applies to purple-prosey fantasy books with ass-stupid names & the majority of post-OoTP fanfic I read, hahaha; it very rarely applies to content, in other words, and only to execution-- the big exception being OOCness in fic and stuff I find relentlessly bleak. Because I'm a huge romantic dork. But I try to keep that under control. :P So yeah, it's a personality issue, basically, and one I can't really do anything about, so nyah.)


In any case, I'm veeeery touchy about actually projecting slashiness on any canon... and in fact I can't think of any where I would do so with all honesty. There's liminal cases like Star Trek, The Sentinel and Gundam Wing, but I wouldn't go so far as to explain anything that happened with the characters through that lens. It's just subtext, take it or leave it.

Aaanyway. It's funny because I have the exact opposite reaction-- usually if something squicks me in text/theory, it squicks me less in a visual representation, because I'm more of an aesthete-- I always look at art as an 'art piece' first and a 'statement' second; in other words, I can easily disengage any moral/ethical/other biases and just enjoy the pretty because pretty is what matters with visual media to me. This is why I have no hard pairing preference with fanart, for instance, and why I tolerate and enjoy extreme cheesiness in fanvids of the sort that'd make me run screaming from a fic.
    Coincidentally, it's also why the 6A/LJ wank sticks in my craw like mad. It's really the art-critique aspect that drives me mad, the double-standard where fanfic is okay but fanart isn't-- fanart needs to be judged by outsiders who don't have the first clue what they're looking at. That just drives me mad. Visual art just... the idea of judging it in such pedestrian terms without even realizing that's what you're doing-- it makes my blood boil.

Regardless, I meant to just quote [livejournal.com profile] harriet_spy's comment:
    To be honest, there's no way you can take a dynamic that hinges even a little bit on transgressiveness, have ten thousand squeeing fangirls stampede over it, and have anything left but flatness.

I just thought that was really... very true. And it really applies to some of my favorite pairings (*cough!*) rather than just Wincest. It's not that I hate fluff... it's that I'm just so bored & frustrated by the sheer glut of narratives that make the transgressive and raw as acceptable and 'easy' as possible. Actually, the reason I wouldn't ship Wincest is probably because you can't reasonably expect it to be remotely healthy or resolvable in any positive way-- and I'm still a romantic. It's kinda figures that the incest is intinsically everyone's problem, but yeah. This definitely reminds of the sheer flatness I felt before I stopped reading H/D altogether; this sense that the pairing has become... completely predictable and 'easy' (in fandom, not in canon). I can't really think of a transgressive pairing that actually consistently captured its own problematic areas... which is why I'm really way too wary to read S/L, but oh well.

Date: 2007-08-23 06:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
But wait, then you said Sirius+Harry! Um! OH YOU MEANT MY SIRIUS+HARRY INSTEAD OF SIRIUS/HARRY. YOU SHOULD BE CAREFUL, MY BRAINS ARE OLD AND CRUSTY D: Anyway, Occlumency is cool. (y) Oh wait, you were gonna beta that!! INCENTIVE! :D Man, I should write that... and make the forum.. .and the website .. . . .and find somewhere to go swimming. . .. ....and clean the apt... and......maklfjslksjlakjlak;jskld Um. That's how it goes in my head ^^;

I liked Harry/Cho! I was all, 'oh Harry, if you want Cho, YOU SHALL HAVE CHO!' and I thought her angst about Cedric would make it interesting & darkish 'cause I love stories dealing with grief. But noooo, it just made her a water fountain :/ Meh. I really wanted cho to be a mixture of Luna and Ginny-- like, have an interesting somewhat cerebral perspective on her emotions (like grief) and yet be emotive and passionate (like Ginny). I dunno. Alas. I can't think of Harry with any girl but Ginny now. I can barely think of Harry with Draco. DAMN YOU JKR D: DAMN YOU, MY OWN CANON-WHORISH NATURE D: D:

Anyway, no deadlines = bad. D: Besides, it's not skimming fandom, since my flist isn't 'fandom' (ie, only a couple of people are in it, really... like, furiosity & pojypojy & kaalee, and... that's it, off the top of my head). Really, without f there I'd be totally adrift. Not that I mind, since the only way I identified with fandom is meta and fics, and I don't read fics anymore and sistermagpie stopped writing meta, so anyway. Yeah.

You really should pressure, then I DO stuff D: You know how I am, don't you? hahahahalfskjflk I need someone to kick my ass so I do what I actually really want to do if it doesn't involve procrastinating, eating & sleeping >__>

Date: 2007-08-23 12:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
Alas. I can't think of Harry with any girl but Ginny now. I can barely think of Harry with Draco.

WTF REENA WTF :(((((((((((((

Date: 2007-08-23 06:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Well... okay that was somewhat of an exagerration, but... I meant creativity or muse-wise? Not that I barely ship them, obv., but a variation on you saying you don't have much left to say, I guess...? I mean, finishing older fics aside... I sort of had this mourning period post-HBP and post-DH I actually had these ideas for H/D DH!AUs and stuff but overall....

You know, it's sorta like how I was about being a scientist when I was in High School. I was really obsessed with the idea, though I could never figure out what I realistically wanted to be, step by step-- I just wanted to change the world through science. It wasn't till I didn't get in (not even close) into MIT and took that boring repetitive chemistry class in freshman year in college that I realized I've been beating my head into a glass wall, being attracted to things like how 'pretty' chemistry is or how 'revolutionary' physics is, which is really the wrong things to focus on. And then when I realized that, instead of regrouping, I totally lost my momentum entirely. I didn't know how to want something else but keep my goal in mind, I guess.

So with H/D, I fixated on the post-OoTP dynamic to the point where it became definitive, and at the same time this helped me fixate on canon in general, because part of being frustrated with people's H/D fics became being frustrated they're 'not canon enough'. This, sorta like my love for science, wasn't reeeeally quite because I'm naturally a canon-whore (entirely) but rather because I just loved the intensity/pain/grief/anger issues of post-OoTP H/D. And then HBP came along, and pretty much defused me by writing the Draco I wanted others to write (dammit) except without the slash; it took me a long time to get over that to write anything, and I never really restarted writing H/D seriously and/or prolifically like before, not really. Eventually I got over my HBP slump, but in the end some magic 'drive' or faith in them together had changed-- not gone, but I wasn't as canon driven as I was before, because I saw canon differently. The canon was, I think (for me), qualitatively different. I can't explain why, exactly, since clearly everyone was shouting 'Victory!!' post-HBP-- but partly that's it; everyone's jubilation at the H/D-ifying of canon only convinced me something was wrong; they were wrong about Harry now -having- to see Draco differently, for instance, wrong about Draco -having- to have his own real Journey now, parallel to Harry's. Something felt off; I felt the emotional climax of 'my' post-OoTP Draco story already having happened and couldn't imagine JKR would take it further after the bathroom scene in the direction I'd want, because that direction = a closer bond between Harry and Draco, no two ways about it. No way would that be canon.

Date: 2007-08-23 07:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] discordiana.livejournal.com
they were wrong about Harry now -having- to see Draco differently

Well, they weren't exactly. Whatever position you had on that theory back then, I feel shouldn't theoretically change now, meaning nothing in canon has happened that's relevant to its validity. I mean, obviously it wasn't part of JKR's vision, but fanfic (and post-OOTP you did agree with this, right?) isn't about the canon author's vision.

I mean, if your drive to fic disappear when you see your vision and the author's diverge, that's a totally different matter, because that's a private matter, but the theory per se wasn't wrong. It resonates even more strongly with me now that I know what the canon is about, not just for Draco but for what he can be made to represent/can be connected wtr the whole narrative. And that's both the end point of a critical reading *and* an emotional reaction -- it's not just about being critical/rational :P I'm not being combative, but I wanted to ask if you do still have emotional reactions in that direction. I mean, we call them "subversive" but that's just one way to name them that I'm afraid make you uncomfortable with fandom politics around the word.

Date: 2007-08-23 10:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Hm, well, my combativeness/overall resentment post-HBP was because people were saying that was now going to be part of 'JKR's vision', so it wasn't 'just about fanfic'. People were all excited post-HBP because suddenly it seemed like the fanon vision of Harry & Draco and the canon were close to being on parallel trajectories. People were talking about Harry & Draco in the 7 year, the future, without specifying whether it was canon or fanon they were discussing. There was a general optimism in that sense, with people thinking that now things had to change, now Draco was going to get his own narrative-- the ground for the disappointment later. It's the expectation you say you never had for Draco, but others did-- that's what I was reacting to here, not the theory itself.

And who knows, I guess-- maybe my memories are now skewed and biased. Seems likely enough. But that's what I remember. It's actually that my drive weakened from too much convergence in HBP, not too much divergence; it was because DH stepped away from the slashy 'issues' and territory that it felt like a relief, was kinda rejuvenating. The more canon diverges and seems hopeless yet charged-- the more there are unresolved issues-- the more inspired I am to write. If canon resolves issues but in a way I didn't quite want while also retaining enough of what I want to have treaded 'my' ground-- that's when I have difficulty; which sounds like I prefer to subvert, in a way, doesn't it :> I like to have my breathing room, my space between canon & fanon, and the tension between them.

I agree, actually, that it's more resonant (for me too) now that I know canon went in a totally different direction-- ie, now that I see the blank spaces much more clearly. To me, those blank spaces are interesting and important, just not in an emotive/shippy way, necessarily (meaning, we may see much the same landscape-- as usual-- and just respond differently 'cause you're more focused on those spaces and possibilities as motivators whereas I'm always waiting for the passion to strike). Harry's emotional arc did complete in DH, or at least he's nowhere near being at a hair trigger. Draco's emotional arc totally diverged from Harry (though it's interesting to me). Perhaps it's about emotional reactions to different sorts of stimuli?? heh.

Do I still care about...? The theory, about Harry's seeing Draco differently? Of course. It's more difficult because in a way there's been a sort of peace already made (ie, some treading of my ground) because he did 'accept' Draco on some level I think by rescuing him, etc. I'm not sure. They're at different places now, emotionally; they're not the lost teenage boys in the middle of a confusing tableau of a war that's too big for them and shoes they don't know how to fill. All those choices of Draco's and Harry's that I wanted each other to influence-- those choices are largely made & the war is pretty much over, so there's only the fall-out. The issues seem fundamentally different in some ways, the same in others; perhaps what's different is the catalysts-- those aren't the same simply because events happened, the crucible came and went, Harry confronted his demon, so to speak, and literally came out the Other Side. A lot is different in terms of overall larger context that makes it difficult to see the old ideal the same way, but.

I mean, of course. In a way, this is unchangeable and constant-- of course I want them to see each other truly. Not even in a shippy way; and I was never that into The War anyway. I'd love to read a Harry+Draco gen fic where they just talk and figure more things out; it's not like Harry's 'enlightened' now; there's the fall-out to deal with, to get to the point of the nod & him naming his child Albus Severus, that I feel wasn't shown post-pensieve, so. It's not necessarily 'H/D' to me, if that makes sense. I dunno. In some way I think Harry sees Draco differently, but I dunno about 'truly'. There would have to be whole new catalysts & a big plot arc, though. I dunno if it inspires me, but I do think there's room for others to work with it...? I really like the wand thing, and the idea of them going on a quest together, stupid/unlikely as it is :))

Date: 2007-08-23 06:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com

Anyway, I was right, or perhaps it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that when you lower your expectations enough, you're never disappointed-- probably a bit of both. I did feel that climax and simultaneous let down that most people felt with DH (though I suppose minus the climax), and I felt it with HBP. I both got what I wanted and not, and after that my 'vision' was lost; I didn't know how to think of Harry with Draco, what tack to take, really, how to change my post-OoTP flaming vision into a dynamic that a) made sense now; b) I loved as much as the post-OoTP dynamic in my head. And while I still loved (love) H/D like crazy, 'thinking of them' in canon is something different. It requires not just love but vision, a sort of belief or conviction, y'know, idealistic in nature (for me,. who's idealistic in nature). My H/D was always crazyintense and I knew Harr y was on the road to control and mastery of the past-- had to be, to be adult enough to kill Voldemort. Draco, I had no clue-- I thought he might be growing up, or might not, but it was clear either way his apex with Harry, his last 'big bang' was when he stomped on Harry's face; I dunno if I 'knew', but I 'felt' or feared or... something. Draco had other fish to fry; the obsessive dynamic had changed, for better or worse, and people saying stuff about Harry being the obsessive one now just hurt my feelings (because it implied he had no good reason to follow him around-- I'm defensive on his behalf, y'know) and made me militantly skeptical in any case.

So yeah, the H+D in DH was actually a relief-- better than I'd hoped for (which I tried realy hard to make 'nothing'), as in it gave me ideas for things (wands!! Malfoy manor!! saving!!), but these are yummy plot ideas, not characterization-driven ideas, if that makes sense. I'm a characterization-driven writer. I will always think Harry needs Draco and vice versa, but it's hard to 'see' it using canon as a launching pad-- not 'subverting' but just using canon. I mean. Still OTP! But notsomuch blazing into the future; just like you, they're my history like HP itself is now-- well--history. *hugs*

Date: 2007-08-23 06:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
Wah :((((( I mean yeah, I do not really think about writing them post-DH. I mean, my post-DH fic that I almost finished before I discarded it was gen-ish H/D, but they still parted, you know? BUT BUT BUT. IN MY HEAD. THEY'RE LIKE. ALWAYS GOING TO BE TOGETHER ETC. And like, even though canon!Harry might never spare Draco a thought, in my head he'll always wonder, and so will Draco, because EVEN IN CANON, they moved each other a little. To me, they did. Like that embarrassing H/D-love post that everyone was like omfg yes about, it is true, really. I don't think their story is ended, I don't, maybe I just don't have a part in writing it anymore :( Or like. It's like even if their story is over, the effect it had on me is not :( OR SOMETHING TRANSFORMATION CHANGING EACH OTHER IN WAYS THAT LAST EVEN IF THE RELATIONSHIP DOESN'T TO THE GATES OF HELL ETC :(

Date: 2007-08-23 07:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Wah :(( You make me feel like I'm shooting puppies. Eep. I didn't mean they're not together in my head :(( What I meant by 'history' is that it's a part of me, unchanging-- changing and growing is what the present and the future does, and it -has- to change with new info, has to grow-- and that's what's difficult for me, that's what I was trying to explain. In order to keep on keeping on with H/D, for me, I realized it'd have to change in a direction I wasn't as passionate about. You can't just keep them in a jar and write them seriously, especially not based on canon. But shipping them and loving the pairing is another matter :)

Just last post I was squeeing about cheesy H/D vids you are totally above, hahah ^^;;; I can see how that sounds like I'm saying that, maybe(?), but I just mean it's a writing thing. I don't know where to go with it, or what I think (yet?) they're 'really' doing in regards to each other in canon... if Harry wonders, I mean... he probably does? But I wanted him to have his eyes peeled open, to have his assumptions blasted, to have his whole world upended, and I wanted that for Draco too. I was never about going quiet into that good night. And post-OoTP, that quietness began to seep in. 'Maturity', 'pity', call it what you will.

But of course there's still love. I just have to regress a bit to get into it. I don't project it into the future as much. I don't construct air-castles like I did post-OoTP-- it's more just going over the memories and old photographs and feeling nostalgic and a little happysad. I dunno. Their fanon story is definitely not ended, but it's more like it's atemporal-- endings and beginnings don't apply anymore. I dunno if there is an ending in my head, anyway-- I'm not saying it's 'ended', just that I don't know where it's going for me. If it's going. Emotionally, I mean; in terms of actual events and such, I have several ideas, haha. Anyway, it's just different levels, really. When I love something, of course I love it forever :)

Date: 2007-08-23 07:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
dlfkjs the fanvids just made me lol by existing okay

just have to regress a bit to get into it. I don't project it into the future as much. I don't construct air-castles like I did post-OoTP-- it's more just going over the memories and old photographs and feeling nostalgic and a little happysad. I dunno. Their fanon story is definitely not ended, but it's more like it's atemporal-- endings and beginnings don't apply anymore.

:(( REENA. SEE I AM NOT REFUTING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, I'M JUST TRYING NOT TO HEAR IT YET BECAUSE I FEEL THAT WAY TOO. And I really miss them. :((

Date: 2007-08-23 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Heheh If I wasn't so wary of going through 10943 hours of film, I'd totally make them myself :> :> Cheesy vids are greatness. You should've seen that pre-Azkaban Sirius + Wormtail fanmovie they showed at the con. I mean, with fans actually acting the parts. In south Cali, like the streets of sunny LA or something. It was a thing of MONUMENTAL BEAUTY. And of course dorkiness, haha. I died. Oh fandom cheese D: D:

Wah. :(( I haven't gotten to the point of missing them yet 'cause I have all this stuff to write, haha, so avoidance is easy as procrastination, but I've been 'not projecting' since the end of HBP, so I guess I'm ahead of you on that front. ^^; Instead of looking for hypothetical sappy fics, you should watch some vids. *eyebrow waggle* Though of course my favorites are angst, there's always stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcs_RnkKOMk&mode=related&search=) & especially this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StcErK-vgv0&NR=1), AHAHAHAHAH :D Disney crack makes it all okay. :>

Date: 2007-08-23 07:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
God you're making me want to read horrible OOC sap in which they wake up together and grouchily promise to love each other forever and I don't even know where to FIND that shit anymore lkdjs

Date: 2007-08-23 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] discordiana.livejournal.com
I just have to regress a bit to get into it. I don't project it into the future as much. I don't construct air-castles like I did post-OoTP-- it's more just going over the memories and old photographs and feeling nostalgic and a little happysad.

You know though (I'm not refuting either, I'm just trying to see if the things I say are useful) but I wrote a lot of stuff after my first reading of DH to deal with my initial problems and one of the big positive things were that I wanted/was actually happy to recapture all my post-OOTP thoughts about (Draco as the monster, and the shadow, but in general) OOTP Draco, yeah. Of course you've got things to add (the HBP and DH story) but it seems to just work in the direction where it makes that reading easier and give it more pay-off. Like even the expectation of romantic heroism after HBP weren't exactly it.

Date: 2007-08-23 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
That -is- interesting if you isolate it; the fact that Draco 'regressed' or didn't progress-- remained most definitely himself. The problem is, of course, that Harry doesn't seem to have a hair-trigger Shadow-like response to Draco's behavior; he seems to accept it(?). Ron got angry and punched Draco, but Harry saved Draco's life instinctively & didn't seem bitter afterwards. I love DH!Draco, though, and his ambiguities and his -trying- so hard and his doing things that are good sort of naturally, if on the very minimal scale-- and he's a lot less angsty/reluctant/conflicted about it than Snape, say, it seems like. I find all that very interesting. Dynamic-wise (ie, H/D), I dunno, it's different.

I do love the connection between OoTP!Draco & DH!Draco, but then I loved HBP!Draco, too and thought he was a totally great and natural progression from OoTP except for the bit where he's not bothered with Harry so much & has other problems now :> The romantic heroism talk all went over my head-- I never even began to connect with it, so it's not an issue; I'm just not sure where I or how I see their dynamic in DH. It's hard to imagine Harry would be all that sensitive to Draco's antics if he forgave -Snape-, but of course it was always more personal in a way with Draco. I mean, it's not that I don't see a potential for other people to write stuff, I just don't feel it myself? It's like I love Draco and Harry's stories but I don't know if I see a story for them together. My sort of story, I mean, not like in general.

I was definitely happy with Draco in DH, though. He was just... constantly himself and yet still managed to give little glimmers of something unexpected. You could work with that. Somehow. Not that I know how, but I still like the idea of DH AUs :>

Date: 2007-08-23 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] discordiana.livejournal.com
I really don't get the talk of how Draco has regressed. I mean, I get it, but that just makes it worse. It seems like when OOTP came out and people were disappointed he wasn't Cassie Claire's Draco. I mean, even the people who hate him seem to be holding this against him, that he's not the fantasy fandom made him out to be.

I think you can't ignore HBP when you talk about Draco, it's just that it's not some essentialist deal where he's either HBP and DH, it's both. That's way better; it's like when I was talking about Draco saving Goyle... it's a lot more awesome when bravery comes from a guy who screams and squeezes so tightly it hurts and later is still saying he's on the DE side to save his ass. But then I just read a post when someone said they shouldn't be sympathizing with Jaime Lannister, and this movie review where the guy was all like "they're all assholes, what's the point of it" and I want to headdesk x1000.

Plus I think Draco changed, moreso than Harry even. It just wasn't bangy or super-positive and cool and didn't bring him to an openly admirable place.

I don't know about Harry... I mean 1) he seemed pretty emotionally robotic in this book to me when he wasn't having righteous anger and 2) the shadow is a complex archetype so I can still very easily read it there but then I almost expect you to want me to make a case for why it's *the* reading rather than just a possible (sneaky! that's what I like about it... remember that song I talked about on aim?) one.

Like, it's supertrue that Harry has a completely different relationship to Snape, if anything because they're so similar, where Draco is an alien in almost every way. But you know what I mean.or

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Date: 2007-08-23 07:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
I know one day I'm going to leave HP behind in a way that means I only think of it fondly as something that happened years ago, and mourn for years past but I don't want to admit that will happen yet :|

Date: 2007-08-23 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Oh, with HP in general.... mostly it's history but I still feel close to it. Like, I want to go to next years con and I still love talking about canon (when I get a chance to) and so on. I don't mean ancient history? It is, of course, very recent history, but... there's a sense of a relationship that is defined rather than developing, and that relationship is to a whole complete canon now. So it's not just fond reminiscence yet for me either!

I shouldn't have said 'just like you', but then you're always saying I'm your one connection to fandom :> Funny, I thought I wasn't really part of fandom for more than a year now :)) Nearly all my friends aren't in fandom, really, and most of them don't even like HP, per se (besides you and a few others). But that doesn't matter-- the point is that my love for canon is totally live & kicking, so I suppose I shouldn't call it history, except that history has many layers, and a lot of them are still alive. :)

Date: 2007-08-23 07:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
No, you are right though, it is history to me, why do you think I moved off LJ in part, you know? I just. Don't want to admit it to myself sometimes, I am way too attached to all this deep down, it is not as easy as I pretend to cut all ties and everything.

Date: 2007-08-23 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I don't want to cut all ties either :(( I mean, okay I don't really read fic anymore but I never cut all ties :(( That's not what history means to me, anyway; I probably keep closer ties with my past than my future, though, I mean, I do the migrating crab thing too (well! I'm a Cancer!)... so it's okay to stay attached. It's okay to keep it. It's okay to still believe in it the way you used to, even if you stopped following the thread of that belief into the future. I think, anyway. You don't have to leave everything behind; you don't even have to leave in the sense of... leaving pieces of your heart behind. You can take it all with you. <3.

Date: 2007-08-23 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amalin.livejournal.com
I just read Maya's last fic and it made me feel all these things more - in love with HP, the knowledge that it's ended, the fact that it will always be part of me, the fact that it's still gone :| kdfjs I know it's so stupid to feel so strongly about it when everything important in my life is still going on, but it's like when NA ended, I rarely talk about it but I'm still not over it, nor will I ever be.

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Date: 2007-08-23 05:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] discordiana.livejournal.com
I can't think of Harry with any girl but Ginny now. I can barely think of Harry with Draco. DAMN YOU JKR D: DAMN YOU, MY OWN CANON-WHORISH NATURE D: D:

Is this because it's so good in canon or just because it's canon?

Date: 2007-08-23 05:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Just 'cause it's canon.

Date: 2007-08-23 06:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] discordiana.livejournal.com
But you can subvert the canon. It's odd because if you don't feel the pull of H/G why would you want it? It's like you make yourself like it, that seems antithetical to the things you always say about emotional authenticity (if I got you right).

You say to Amalin: it's hard to 'see' it using canon as a launching pad-- not 'subverting' but just using canon. But subversion of the canon is still about the canon. I mean, it's not like it becomes about Peter Pan.

Date: 2007-08-23 07:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
The thing is, I like H/G... in the sense of 'my' H/G, the way I wrote it, the way I thought of it post-OoTP before it happened, etc. In book 6 I was unhappy but I still saw interesting story possibilities, interesting emotional directions; all angst, of course. But then to me, H/G was always angst city. I always felt myself drawn to Ginny's fixation (as I tend to be with any fixation) & I think Harry's interest in her is psychologically interesting and weirdly dark (and I think we agree on this). Secondarily, I don't see him with Luna at all, and the Cho thing was temporary 'cause I wanted to make him happy. So canon-wise, I mean-- I don't see any alternatives; JKR constructed it so that it's actually obvious Ginny's the girl for him (to me). The problem is she didn't write it well. :/ But that's neither here nor there.

Of course I think I was partly subverting canon with my post-OoTP H/D vision, so that's not the problem; it's not like I 'replaced' H/D with H/G-- canon and fanon were always separate in my mind, and I needed Harry to be happy 'in canon' because (as I used to be fond of repeating), he's not gonna be happy in canon with Draco, is he. So... it's a combination of various things I mentioned to Amalin that made me feel stuck, because HBP directly answered my vision for Draco while also cutting it prematurely short. I never figured out a direction I wanted to go was my point-- and I'd still need canon to point me in a direction, to give me characterization ideas I could feel passionate about. And while there were (and are) plot points to exploit, that's different that being inspired by canon characterization the same way I was by OoTP.

That's why I made that comparison to me & the dream of science I had in High School & the hard time I have regrouping and changing my ideal future vision once I get really attached to it. I thrive on emotional intensity & passion, and both Harry & Draco became... ultimately distracted from that line of inquiry by the end of HBP. Draco actually became 'distracted' earlier; though someone (I forgot who) once made the argument that Draco's still highly affected by Harry in canon... I think it made use of the bathroom scene. In any case, it's not that I'm afraid of subverting or whatever but rather than canon actively stymies any vision for me; I don't see a direct route to get where I want. It doesn't help I'm not 100% sure what I want for them, besides the usual (transformation, true vision, etc); I mean in more direct emotional terms. Before, my anchor was Draco and his obsession; once that anchor was gone, I couldn't figure out where to go, and as it was true post-HBP, it's still true to this day, that's all. Nothing new, really. :>

Date: 2007-08-23 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] discordiana.livejournal.com
Ok, I see it differently (especially the part about Draco's obsession ultimately makes as pissed off as Harry being the obsessive one makes you, probably for the same extreme places where it's taken) but I'm going if I can talk to what you see and take it someplace... like, of course I still don't understand if you want to cut it off and have just some last-minute anxiety or don't want to cut it off but feel forced to by the canon... I'm going to assume it's the latter.

So it's interesting that even in the way you talk about Ginny you always take it back to your own vision somehow, because that's a valid way to think about it, except it's also subversive. It seems that you have this artificial distinction in your mind about what's subversive or not, so H/G with your vision to compensate/fix canon is ok but H/D isn't. It's something I noticed you often bring up in discussion of the things that are fannish in nature, like it's ok to do them but in a humble way where you acknowledge it's not really as good as what various authorities dictate (like you're resistant to the death of the author the same way you're resistant to gay readings.)

In terms of passion, if you want Draco to be obsessive and saw it in previous incarnations, I don't see why you can't recover that when you create your own characterization. Characterization, especially derivative ones and especially ones that rely a lot on archetypes, are more complex than a sum of canon bullet points. I mean, I don't need all that obsessive passion but I see the relationship as still fundamental to the structure of the books in its own way, and that way has a lot of do with emotions. It's not something you can explain with a simple literal reading, but then, when where you ever into that? "Malfoy was just a worthless coward" is maybe correct literally, but it's not something you are interested in. The emotional value of the H/D relationship is not something that was brought to the surface to the fullest (and maybe wasn't even in JKR's mind) but it's still there, and there not being a resolution works better for you.

Date: 2007-08-23 08:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I see how you see that contradiction (ie, why is subversive/compensatory!H/G okay but not H/D), but the thing is that H/G is canon. My compensating is something I wouldn't do so easily if it wasn't canon and if I didn't think it would be canon in the first place. My desire to be happy for Harry and to understand his characterization and what he sees and what he wants, ultimately, is a very strong motivator. It's sort of like... I feel like I see what maybe JKR meant to say, partly, or didn't quite say... little clues in characterization, things she didn't capitalize on but are there. OoTP!Ginny and pre-OoTP Ginny, the ramifications of her behavior in HBP... they were never tied together in canon. Ginny never really came together for me (in canon alone) as a 'real' character (and that's sort of Sister M's issue too, right? that she seemed artificial and/or out of nowhere?) but it does make sense to me if I compensate and go by clues. I dunno. I'm not subverting on purpose, is the thing, it's just how I see it; just like with H/D, my reaction isn't a choice (where I want to hold on but am forced to 'let go' by canon), exactly, but an emotional response I later rationalize and/or put in context. Fi first :>

You can see how it totally deflates me to think my initial attraction to Draco's obsessiveness is somehow 'wrong' and bad and/or unfair to the character (the way the obsessive!Harry people were unfair)... especially because I got that initial passion basically from fanfic/fanon. It was a lot strengthened by my vision of what could happen post-OoTP, though-- not so much that it fed Draco's obsession, but even better-- it drove them both onto a collision course. Anyway, I do think canon!Draco was juuuust a little fixated on Potter :P Harry too, but in a different way; you actually said it recently, in the thing where for Harry it's water and for Draco it's fire; it's that fire I loved so much. Does that explain it better?

Anyway, it's not that I think their dynamic is unimportant to the books now; it's an emotional response thing on my part, to do with my reaction to the dynamic I see, which is why it's hard to control or change or choose to follow, etc. I either 'see' it or I don't, emotionally; it's not a structural or event-oriented thing, it's all inspiration based on characterization. It's not that I have to take it literally, but it has to ping me, anyway. AUs and rewrites are just intrinsically different than future-projection stuff.

You're right that the emotional value of their relationship wasn't brought to the surface fully, but to change what happened you'd have to literally rewire the huge behemoth that is canon and change several major trajectories. I know you can't see why I can't 'recover' Draco's passion just by choosing-- and I don't know how to explain; it's not that I saw it, it's that I saw room for it-- I mean, he was obsessive in a childish vindictive way, and that was cute, but that space post-OoTP was a mental space, not a real spot in canon. It was... overwritten by HBP, kinda, because of the overlap between my imagination and canon, somehow. I feel partly like I can't reclaim my dynamic because it... actually became subsumed into actual events. Well, it makes sense in my head, anyway. It's not at all about bullet points or anything so rational; I mean, we're talking about me here. :>

To me, it's not a philosophical/rational decision involving beliefs about the death of the author or projecting slash; I mean, I never actually projected H/D onto canon, I just found that OoTP inspired me to work with those issues that I saw and some issues I always want to work with and see (grief and anger and proving oneself and needing to be seen, applying as much to Harry as to Draco, etc). It's not a choice to actively follow JKR 'instead'; besides, it's not really humbleness I advocate so much as umm, a measure of rationality because the fangirls, they say some crazy things. ^^;

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